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Worst defenders among all-star tier guards

Discussion in 'NBA Dish' started by neruto, Mar 19, 2016.

  1. neruto

    neruto Member

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    I know what you're thinking. This is too easy, media is constantly telling me Harden is the worst defensive player in the league, let alone at the guard position. I mean look at all those vines where Harden just stands still like a narcoleptic patient while his man passes him by without an ounce of effort.

    Well, unfortunately you're wrong. Just as Brian Scalabrine's highlight reel doesn't make him a HOF, Harden's momentary defensive lapses don't make him 'the worst defender alive.' Don't get me wrong, he's pretty bad, but not as bad as you think he is.

    So, in reality, who are the worst defenders among well known guards in this league? Well, that crown goes to Kyrie Irving and Damian Lillard.

    Let's start with Kyrie Irving.

    DRPM : -3.41
    DBPM - -1.5
    Drtg : 106
    DWS : 1.4

    Except for Drtg (Defensive rating), these numbers are much worse than Harden's. If you actually watch his game, he cannot keep up with his man at all, whether it be Iso or P&R play. His ability to fight through the screens is just atrocious and one of the worst I have ever seen in my life.

    Keep in mind that Irving just let Victor Oladipo explode 45 points on him with 16/22 shooting. That's like seriously bad. Where's the media criticism on this? Crickets. His lack of passing ability might get scrutinized but making fun of poor defense? Well, that's only reserved for Harden, and we all know that.

    Damian Lillard is not much better, tho.

    DRPM : -3.37
    DBPM : -1.9
    Drtg : 110
    DWS : 1.3

    All across the board, Lillard's defensive stats are worse than those of Harden. And again if you actually watch his game, this should not come as a surprise. Along with Irving, Lillard is one of the worst at following his man around. I suspect this is due to the fact that they both lack lateral quickness, but so does Harden (And Harden actually does decent defensive job during 1-1 or P&R situation. But he really struggles covering spot up shooters, which makes him a net negative defensive player.)

    I only mentioned Lillard and Irving here, but DeRozan is pretty bad defensively too. Also, Klay Thompson's D is quite overrated. He's average at best, far from being a lock down defender that supposedly makes him a 2-way player.

    And these guys - with their defensive deficiencies - are all few notches below Harden when it comes to scoring buckets and creating offensive opportunities for their teammates. Yet, they are still considered all-star tier players and one of the best at their position. But somehow it makes sense to nationally make mockery out of Harden and give him zero respect? When Harden has far superior offensive game and better even defensively?

    Shame on you ESPN.
     
  2. rocketsballin

    rocketsballin Member

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    horribly disguised haren efense thread, but i like it. you're hired!
     
  3. RoxD

    RoxD Member

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    If you put in a table all the adv stats of DeRozan, Harden, and Klay Thompson, together with Lillard and Irving, it would save you a lot of words. We can see it clearly by ourselves.

    Thanks for your effort anyway.
     
  4. sealclubber1016

    Supporting Member

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    Harden is nowhere near the defensive liability he is made out to be, but he is still very bad. At this point I don't even try to defend him anymore because he is deserving of all the crap he gets.

    I don't expect him to be an elite defender, it's unrealistic to expect somebody to create all the offense and lock down the best player on the other team. Having said that it's completely inexcusable that he isn't at least an adequate defender like he was last season.
     
  5. neruto

    neruto Member

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    Here you go :

    Harden

    DRPM : -0.8
    DBPM : -0.5
    Drtg : 108
    DWS : 2.0

    DeRozan

    DRPM : -2.53
    DBPM : -1.2
    Drtg : 108
    DWS : 2.1

    Klay Thompson

    DRPM : -1.08
    DBPM : -2.3
    Drtg : 107
    DWS : 2.1
     
  6. neruto

    neruto Member

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    Harden is a below average defender and I think that's pretty much all we can get out of him defensively. Although, I just don't buy into the narrative that Harden is 'lazy' and that is why he's struggling on the defensive end. I think lacking elite lateral quickness as well as sub par athleticism is what's really hindering him from becoming a good defender. He also shows problems playing team defense, especially during defensive rotations. If you watch him carefully, he actually does much better guarding his man just straight 1-1.

    He is quite crafty and high IQ offensive player, but just happens to be exact opposite on the other end. Being not very athletic + having trouble reading and reacting defensively on the team level is the real reason why he struggles in this area, I think. But I do see him at least trying these days, and defensive mistakes he's making are mostly non-effort related.
     
  7. Ziggy

    Ziggy QUEEN ANON

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    Is there a metric that solely tracks transition defense? I don't think Harden is the worst defender, I think he's the worst transition defender. Teams have been covering up bad defenders for years, but poor transition defense is hard to make up for.
     
  8. neruto

    neruto Member

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    There is no data for Harden's transition D but we can see how he is doing defensively in other areas, per NBA.com

    isolation - 0.77ppp - 67.6th percentile
    p&r ball handler - 0.72ppp - 78.5th percentile
    post up - 1.02ppp - 19.4th percentile
    spot up - 1.12ppp - 16.7th percentile
    hand off - 0.85ppp - 54.3th percentile
    off screen - 1.13ppp - 21.9th percentile

    So basically, Harden is above average (average being 50th percentile) in isolation, pick & roll, hand off defense and below average in post up, spot up, off screen defense.
     
  9. Ronkol

    Ronkol Member

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    We know Harden can be a good defender. Indeed he often displays he's a good defender.

    However, often he seems to choose not to defend!

    There are 20 million reasons to be critical about that attitude. You can post stats till you turn blue, it's why media and fans single him out. And quite frankly, rightly so, his lack of effort is an eye-sore.

    The times he actually does show he's very good only makes this only more annoying.
     
  10. J Sizzle

    J Sizzle Member

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    Harden's not the worst defender in the league like his reputation says he is. That's pretty obvious if you watch enough games.

    He is absolutely responsible for more embarrassing lapses than anybody else in the league, though, and those are what make the rounds on Vine and Twitter.
     
    1 person likes this.
  11. Easy

    Easy Boban Only Fan
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    Laziness (meaning not making effort) is part of the issues but not the biggest problem. I think Harden's biggest problem on defense is losing focus. It's like his mind just checks out when he is not creating offense.

    There were times when you could see that he was focused at the defensive end and he could be pretty effective.
     
  12. ISOBall

    ISOBall Member

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    Harden is a good defender. We have turned a corner with the help of his defense. This team is peaking at the right time. Nobody wants to face this team in the playoffs.
     
  13. Carl Herrera

    Carl Herrera Contributing Member

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    Klay Thompson's D is not overrated. Your D is overrated, and underiszed.
     
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  14. clos4life

    clos4life Member

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    Only you would be an expert on other people's D size and rating. ;)
     
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  15. i3artow i3aller

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  16. SK34

    SK34 Member

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    IF a team is on fast break, he will act like he is trying but really he is not trying. He lets anyone and everyone get easy buckets.
     
  17. OTMax

    OTMax Member

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    Bring all the stats you want, it's Harden hands down and it's really a lack of hard work. Look at his positioning, his stance and the way he uses his hands. It's laughable.
     
  18. DonatasFanboy

    DonatasFanboy Member

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    DeRozan seems to be one of those players who is more engaged vs. some players than others.

    I think he understands defense and has physical ability. I think he'll probably be more consistent in the playoffs. He's far above someone like Lillard.

    Not sure how he compares with Harden right now, I don't really watch the Rockets this year.
     
  19. OTMax

    OTMax Member

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    Harden with the great TO and effort
     
  20. astrosrule

    astrosrule Member

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    So all of the stats are wrong?
     

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