What are all these former players so threaten by what Steph Curry is doing?

The effect of hand checking rule has been debated in depth in this thread:

http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=272927

In summary, two major points debunk the theory that Curry couldn't have been as effective if he played in the 90s.
1. No illegal defense affects scoring much more than the hand checking rule.
2. Reggie Miller is a perfect example of how a skinny shooter could thrive in the 90s. Curry actually has a more solid physique than Miller.

Also, it's a myth that Curry only stays in the perimeter. He scores a lot at the rim--in an era of no illegal defense. He is not scared of going inside. It's up to the defense to give him the so-called 90s style hard fouls if they want.

 

Why not?

Conversation: best ever player.

Evidence: best ever team record.

So someone on the team must be pretty good u think? Weak opponents/lack of competition? Lebron never had this kind of record even in the leastern conference. Plus just last year you would've argued the west had been the most competitive it had ever been. Only doesn't seem so this year cos the dubs broke many hearts.

You may point to teams like '16 Spurs or 04 Pistons whose success is collective effort without anyone shining too bright. We don't get the sense of domination from the Pistons cos they didn't obliterate and demoralize like the dubs does today. Spurs is great and ppl are giving credit to kawhi. But a terrorizing presence? You know well who is the one presence on the Ws who terrorizes.

Even at 61-6, most of the losses seemed like they just lost focused or lost some healthy bodies on a back-to-back. Not once in the season did they seem like they should legitimately lose yet.

What's the reason for their historically winningest ways then? Just luck? Oh great team? Great teammates? As if other teammates in the history of the league never ever matched up to the level of Curry's teammates or historically weak opponents? Spurs thunders say hello. Or... A Historically transcendental talent who averages 30 on 34 mins?

EVEN IF you try to explain that klay dray iggy and co are superior teammates than all who came before them, or that Spurs OKC clip & co form the weakest competition the league had ever since. YOU ARE STILL IN THE CONVERSATION of debating whether Curry is the primary reason for a historically best ever season record, which in turn implies that Curry is among the best ever.

 

This is the NBA evolution - a huge and drastic change to style of play that looks extremely jarring to old timers.

Personally, I don't think they're putting down Curry but the brand of basketball he represents.

The NBA v3.0

 

Easy, i don't think they are saying you had to be massive to play back then. Of course there were skinny players, but most of them had a reputation for being tough as hell and even dirty to a point because they had to be. I guarantee you Reggie with his rail thin frame is stronger than Steph Curry with his little pumped muscles. There is such a thing as innate strength. Hakeem Olajuwon for example wasn't the biggest big man, but everyone he faced said he was strong as hell. I'm sure nearly everyone here has met or come across some skinny guy who had strength that caught you off guard.

I personally think Curry would still be an all star in any era, but if he's not surrounded by 3 point threats like he currently is, there is no way he does what he is currently doing. It opens up the entire floor for him to be his level surrounded by threats the entire perimeter. We've seen the kind of player he is without 40% 3 pt shooters at every position. He's a nice 19-20ppg, 6apg type of player with great %'s and a deadly stroke.

Watch the highlights. Nearly the entire defense is sucked up to the perimeter and Curry by screen or faking to the screen gets past his man and basically slow motion walks it up to the rim for some little Steve Nash like scoop layup. Even when there is a big who jumps and contests, they look afraid to make contact because the league doesn't allow big men to play like big men anymore. Hakeem, Shaq, Admiral, Ewing, Zo, Mutombo etc would swat those slow ass drives into the stands. It's not that they'd throw him down in some attempt to hurt him, Curry would bounce off of them into the floor because big men were allowed to use their body unlike today. Yes, you would have your Karl Malone, Dennis Rodman, Charles Oakley like players who would probably try and hurt Curry, but it's not like they'd be trying to end his career. Good hard fouls is what most people talk about when they mention the 80's and 90's. For example what do you do to a good shooter when he drives it in? You slap the **** out of his hands or forearms so he feels the sting and misses a ft and it might bother him on the rest of his shots and certainly make him think twice about driving it in again. It's about taking away comfort.

I'm sure the old timers are only "hating" or calling it like it is because media hype gets way overblown too fast these days. Many of them had to beast for at least a decade. The media can turn you from a dleague player into a GOD in less than 15 games(Lin). Now in a nice season+66games of an epic season and the media can create fans like Wekko who says Curry is the greatest scorer of all time with zero weaknesses. That's the way it goes. It happened when Kobe did his thing. Fans flipped out at the overpraising. "Kobe is the GOAT" talk faded away. Then comes along LeBron. "LeBron is GOAT" now that is fading away for the medias new darling. Soon after Curry, there will be another player who fans will say is 10x better than than Curry and these same Curry fans who are ****ting on the history of the game and it's legends will deal with the younger generation doing it to them.

The fact is that Curry on a team with scrubs is just another all star player. It's a fact. He was no GOAT or even on ESPN's radar his first 5 seasons in the league. He was a nice player and in talks for GOAT shooter. But, now Wekko and What argue he is the GOAT scorer just like that. The best scorer ever relies heavily on tons of screens. Of course everyone remembers the highlights of him going one on one or pulling up from 30 coming down court, but throughout the course of the game, he uses multiple screens nearly every possession. The finishing at the basket %'s have much more to do with the combination of how deadly and respected his shot is with the defense choosing rather to defend the 3 and allowing Curry little to no resistance for 2 easy points.

Watch this and pay attention to how late the defense is to react to Curry on the highlights where he drives it in. By that time, it's too late and they give half ass effort. That's the danger of the team. Not just Steph Curry.
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/xy0p42tfhsE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Now watch any MJ highlights and tell me you think Curry can score on 3 to 4 and sometimes the entire team collapsing on him and bodying him up just for a lay up. Give Curry the screens that MJ didn't need. That's fine. Give it to him. He'd be forced to pull up for a long 2 after trying to drive it in one of two times. Like i said. we've seen what Curry can do without a beast team. 20ppg, 6apg. Great %s. An all star. One of the greatest shooters ever. Not a freaking BASKETBALL GOD the media has made him to be so fast.

 

So what is it? Was it Steve Kerr the genius that turned them around or is it that Steph is GOAT?

Hmm. Most of the same team was there when they lost in the 1st round. Difference? David Lee getting hurt and Kerr being forced to start some bench player named Draymond Green who turned the entire team around. Averages near a triple double while shooting 38% from 3 and playing DPOTY candidate level defense.

 

Most laughable & ridiculous statement in clutchfans history. Today's teams aren't close to the 80's & 90's defensively. Are you serious? There isn't ONE team today defensively better than the Bad Boy Pistons or 90's Knicks. Back then it was just harder to get a bucket

 

That's completely untrue. I watched my Bulls battle all those so called "good defensive teams". First the Pistons, then the Pacers, the Knicks, and finally the Heats. But the truth is none of those teams were real good defensive teams, except maybe the Pacers. They had the label of "physical", "dish out of hard foul", that's because they couldn't play good defense.

Pat Riley didn't had his Lakers play that style of ball because they were talented, and can beat other teams. His Knicks and Heats were bad teams, the only way they can win games was to play dirty, try to intimidate the other teams.

Don't equal the dirty, hard foul with good defense.

 

Yeah except scoring was higher during the bad boys era and more fouls were actually called per game with higher shooting percentages.

 

only way to stop curry is to get a bench player to hipcheck him at halfcourt

 

Yes, Kerr gave them a lot of confidence, and he makes the right decisions. Last year, no player on the team had even gone that far in the playoffs, except, they can believe in Kerr. Dray's D vs Lee's made a huge difference in terms of team balance and versatility.

Kerr recognized the right way to play the players and let Curry be Curry. He's quoted to say he'd be an idiot to not let Curry shoot anywhere on the court. Curry is unconventional and Kerr incubates this outrageous style.

The primary reason for the dubs success is Curry's transcendental abilities. I can't think of too many ppl who would disagree with this. While there are other important factors and components to team success, Curry's ability is what demoralizes the likes of durant, Westbrook and popovich.

Why cant curry be in the conversation to have a peak season no one ever achieved, aka best individual season ever, if he is regarded as a primary reason for his team's unprecedented record?

The conversation is that, if his peak is higher than others ever had, and if he can sustain it for another 4 years, could he be the goat? It is possible, that's why ppl are talkin.

Just a talk, folks. No one is crowning his career yet. Everyone is praising his season though.

 

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats.html

Here you go hand check purists. You'll notice that the rough defense era typically had more fouls calls and higher scoring averages than today. But yeah it was harder to score back then aparantly even though there were more free throws, more foul calls (shocking since aparantly they let the players play back then) , higher shooting percentages and higher scores.

 

An afterthought? It's what separates him from Magic, Larry, Oscar, etc.

I feel like some need to refresh their memory on MJ's career a bit.

This is a nice timeline of videos that paints a nice picture of the evolution of MJ.
College
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<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/F9wQ64feSbc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

First 4 Years in the NBA
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/eIO5wpDVJC8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

1988 to 1991 before ring #1 (no playoff highlights)
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/P_v2C8ejIHs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

1991-1993 First 3 Peat (no playoff highlights)
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/emxEBUbyXXo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Extra from 1984 to 1993
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/S7Huo88x-Fk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Extra acrobatics highlights from 1984 to 1993
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/j1FsD9Y7NfY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Extra rare footage
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/9yjMgtnXQMc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

First comeback from retirement 95 and 96(no playoff highlights)
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/hnvg76lkJJI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

1996-1998 2nd 3Peat (no playoff highlights)
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/7x13q4bLgO8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Playoff highlights from whole career
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/jGU6MMF9Yx4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/FtKnm-Sf7t8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

38-40 Years old as a Wizard
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/SAHEL2wLwZA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/rBGyh-CmePk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

EXTRAS
Exhibition matches/All star/Charity/International
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/HFF9DHsDkio" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Passing highlights
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/AiTOXUmsdoM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Defense/Blocks
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Bdw1wiBcN3k" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

All Reverse Layups
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/7vBc395dSg4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Top 50 Hangtime
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/7UC-BBSLgS8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Top 50 NBA Finals plays
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/lI8cYx64U0k" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Top 45 plays wearing #45
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/8inciV7hgMY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Fakes,Reverses, Dunks etc
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/q1QJwQZHNc4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

(hopefully i got all the links right, if not just check it wisiti93420 channel, hes got other great player mixes too)
**Some videos don't have audio anymore, so just play your own music and enjoy.

 

You really don't understand what you're seeing, do you?

The reason the defense is late to react to Curry's penetration is because they're trying to prevent his perimeter jumper. On screens, Curry's defender tries to go over the screen, and the secondary defender is also trying to close out. As a result, they overextend their perimeter defense, and Curry goes right to the rim.

Who cares if he relies heavily on screens? If anything, the ability to play off the ball makes him an even greater threat. Everyone already knows what he's capable of with the ball.

And like I said before, that's an ignorant perspective. You're cherry-picking the years when it was Monta Ellis' team.

 

I just think you don't know a lot about Curry hence you short change his abilities out of baseless assumptions.

Lots of info had been posted in the long thread of discussion here. For example, Curry is the second strongest guy on his team behind only Ezeli. 90s 80s D were actually not that tough, u can watch the tapes and tell us how those Ds can do differently to Curry. With honesty though. To my eyes they used to score pretty much easier than today, and it's consistently backed up by stats too.

Flagrant foul rules are the only thing that make players hesitate to foul hard, which as a result players had to channel their softness to complain or flop for the calls. Otoh some rules also offset this soft league advantage such as elimination of illegal D. IMO, the advantage which Curry would have enjoyed with illegal D outweigh the hand heck rules.

Curry is tough dude, you didn't see him get beat all the time even today? You didn't see him hardly missed any time with that awful OKC ankle tweak? What about his handles? Players back in the days stand a better chance than players today?

Regarding the 20 & 6 curry. Yo that was Curry on a bad ankle, held back by injuries this whole time, favoring parts of his body instead of playing ball. He solved the ankle only two three years ago.

You can feel salty but it doesn't mean that others are wrong to talk Curry in this fashion. He is unprecedented, so lots of us are intrigued. The way ESPN treats curry is even different from Kobe or lebron. I don't think any commentators ever seriously suggested Kobe > MJ, except diehard Kobe fans.

Anyways, can you accept that since dubs are enjoying an unprecedented record, and Curry as well with unprecedented numbers, lots of ppl are talking about the possibility that they will rank amongst the top in history?

 

while i agree with the rest of your post and while the warriors winning all of their marquee matchups and only losing to mediocre/bad teams or games with curry or draymond out makes it seem like they haven't legitimately lost yet, their margin of victory, even as high as it is, says they should have lost a lot more. they will get the all-time wins record, maybe by even 3 games, and yet they are almost 1 ppg off of the best margin of victory ever.

when the bulls broke the all-time record by 3 wins they basically tied the all-time margin of victory record. the warriors could end up 6 games ahead of the '72-'73 lakers with a lower margin of victory. right now the warriors have a predicted 54-13 record but are 7 games above that record. that's fairly fluky, or clutch, or lucky, or random, whichever word people prefer. last year they were predicted to win 65 and won 67 so this same group didn't have any special ability to outperform their MOV last year. part of the reason they've won all their marquee matchups is because they've had some amazing sequences in those games.

and unless someone thinks "you're just hating on them, the warriors are clutch and should always win close games," the bulls final 3 losses were actually all by 1 point, and i don't think anyone would argue michael jordan wasn't clutch. sometimes you just win lots of close games and sometimes you lose lots of close games.

and the fact that we can remember things like "well, curry sat out that game" or "draymond didn't play that game" shows how unbelievably healthy they have been. maybe all of the all-time best record teams have been very healthy, i don't know, but when a harrison barnes and iguodala sprained ankle are the two biggest injuries you've had in 2 years, that's amazing and helps you have the best record ever versus other historical teams.

i really wanna see pop play everybody in the 3 other games with the warriors. if the warriors smack them around in another game or 2, when the spurs actually have the largest margin of victory ever and are playing everybody, then maybe everything i just said doesn't matter.

 

Considering Curry has sat out around 20 fourth quarters, I don't think margin of victory is a reliable metric.

 

Yeah, I agree. What I meant was that at no point had the dubs been an underdog yet, not after shredding cavs to pieces and denying OKC every time down. It means we even seemed to have underestimated this team, hence they've been on a mission to prove their worth.

Yes, the dubs haven't even played that way, according to themselves. They had quite a few lucky wins like last sec OT and stuff. They tend to get it done due to having supreme confidence. Yet they do sleep on teams in stretches. For instance, they only started tryin late in the game vs Denver, and for that one they came up short. Against the lakers, they were asleep the whole day

I remember during the 24-0 start, every player kept saying in interviews they're playing bad and had careless TOs etc, all true. They know their next gear is so high so they are prone to lapses. They're a young team, so it makes sense. Yes they're young, can you believe it?

Whereas Veteran teams have no problem in the focus department. Like many, I enjoyed the Bulls run a lot. They know they will win cos they've been there. When they lost though, I didn't feel it was due to lapses (remember many of those 1pt losses, so close! Late in the 69 win season too). It's a little bit different than the young guns in the dubs... The dubs sort of know they're the best but how much better? We'll find out. So they toy around sometimes.

 

They ain't even that good

 

Remember the first loss of the season to the Bucks? Starters were supposed to sit out the 4th q in the previous game due to huge blowout too. But the dubs bench blew it, then klay had to come back to finish the game as well as to injure himself.

Good point on the lack of third stringer production as a factor in their less than almighty victory margins. Mo speights also only got in form relatively recently.

 

Exactly what i was thinking. I don't know how much the starters were rested for the bulls team, or the lakers team.

Their margin of victory could be higher i suppose, but they could have lost a few more games because of fatigue or injury.

It's very complicated and convoluted to consider all of those factors.