Bernie Sanders 2016 Feel the Bern!

Man, turnout has been horrendous. Down 16% since Obama vs Clinton.

One thing that has stuck out to me is how voting is almost meticulously designed to keep young people from wanting to do it. Yeah yeah, we all know it, and I know there is no formal conspiracy going on to do this. But that makes it all the more amazing how brilliantly this thing has developed to make it as uninteresting to youth as possible.

I've been following the discussions going on in the last few pages - frankly, it's such fantasy from the Clinton supporters. Of course Hillary is succesful in the establishment framework, that's the whole problem. There's a reason why 8 years ago Obama said Hillary would do/say anything to be president, and today he is supporting her. It's the same old politics. Of course she is winning on the back of low turnout and OLD voters, of course. No one wants a major change at an old age after you've been planning your retirement for 20 years and which won't make a significant change to your retirement money. That's not representative of all American voters, ESPECIALLY in the primaries.

Of course Bernie doesn't have a huge operation as sophisticated as his opponents. That's exactly what is netting him shockingly good results right now. That's why he is who he is, that's why people who vote for him go out and vote for him.

It's clear to see there is a source problem here that neither candidate can just fix. You are in a sinking ship discussing who can throw more water off the boat. THE SHIP IS SINKING, DROWNING IN MONEY. But you're engaging in small-minded discussion about the guaranteed results of sinking slower.

Hillary is not going to get money out of politics. She is not going to suddenly stop loving war. She is not going to stop doing what is profitable to a politician. She will give you a lot of what she says she'll give you. I believe that she will deliver on 60-70% of her mediocre promises. She would be a president than any republican in the race for most Americans.

But this problem is not static. It is growing faster than what a Hillary has to offer. Privacy, equality, social mobility, financial crisis, government gridlock. These things have gotten worse under the most progressive president you've had in a long time. No, I am not ignoring Obama's accomplishments, I'm simply saying that even under OBAMA, the presidential hall of famer himself, things haven't changed as much as he thought they would and he had favorable conditions in his first term.

It's seriously time to stop talking about small gains and start acknowledging that the oligarchs have have achieved enormous control and don't seem to want to stop. It is behind every little thing you want. For every thing that Hillary says she'll get you, she will feed the oligarchs something else. I wish it were the situation where Hillary gave something to conservative Americans every time she got something for centrist Americans, but that's not going to happen. It's for the oligarchs to compel their puppets to accept, and they will do that when they get their cut. That's why the Dem voters started whining about Obama compromising too much. It's not compromise, it's just the tax that goes to the oligarchs. You got to do it if you want to become president the traditional route and fulfil your teenage dreams of being called POTUS. So you can get to go outside and say: "LOOK! I GOT HEALTHCARE FOR MOST!"

Can you afford what Hillary owes the oligarchs right now? She is in debt to the people who want to gamble with your healthcare, your social security, your education, your banking system, your taxes. She owes them. She will pay them back. She will pay them back. Mark my words, she will pay them back.

I've said it a million times, Bernie is not going to get into that office and pass things the way every President tried to pass things. He's going to do the maximum he can do as president without the help of the oligarchs, and when he wants something he can't get without him he is going to come out and name them one by one and tell you what is going on. He's not going to sweep his concessions under the rug while touting his successes. But the most important thing Bernie is going to do is change the discussion. Just like the discussion needs to be changed here, it needs to be changed in America. The culture of fear has to end. I know you have been mind ****ed with propaganda about how stability is good and radical change is bad.

But I want to know:

Do you really think that there is going to come a time in the future when removing money from politics and removing large scale risk from the market and compelling the most powerful people in America to pay higher taxes... will happen without there being a serious existential threat to the stability of your governance structure and economy? Or are you hoping these ultra powerful, ultra rich, highly prepared oligarchs are going to let you sneak progress by one president at a time? Do you think they wouldn't, for example, triple their spending? Do you think they won't get into paying more money to congressmen, justices, senators, mayors, governors, and anyone they can find to extend their reign?

Remember when I said the problem is not static. Do you realize that as income inequality widens, it is becoming more and more feasible to spend more money on hijacking this? Or do you think this is the worst it will get? The Kochs are spending $1bn in this campaign and not winning. Can't you see that it's going to be $2bn next time, double the psychologists, double the marketers, bigger share of the online market, more anchors, more pundits, more think tanks, etc?

This is a bigger problem than Hillary wants to fix, because the problem that needs to be fixed is what has Hillary leading Bernie today. I predict there is no 8 more years of the same old thing in Chicago, Baltimore, Birmingham, Compton and Flint. There is no 8 more years for students drowning in anti-depressants and loans. There is no 8 more years for widening inequality. There is no 8 more years for relentless increase in work hours. There is no 8 more years for jobs being shipped out.

The country needs a change in consciousness more than it needs anything else. It needs young people to realize primaries are important, that voting is organized in a really ****ty way, that organizing and demanding civil rights is possible. That's my argument. Nothing is more important because I do not for one second believe that there is any net positive Hillary can achieve for the next 20-30 years with the debts she has which would materially outweigh the net positive Bernie could achieve in the next 20-30 years. The problem is bigger than the seat, and the solution has to be bigger than the problem.

The solution can not be one that has been anticipated by the opposing force for decades.

 

This is a major problem for the "Bernie will start a revolution" argument. He could beat Hillary with many less voters than Obama had, and he's still not doing so. That suggests he's not inspiring the revolution of disaffected people that he hopes for.

 

Bernie does not have Bush to energize him like Obama did.

 

It is also hard to be "anti-establishment" and kiss the current president's ass at the same time. If you liked Obama elect Clinton. He is talking out of both sides of his ass.

 

Sure - but that's irrelevant. Bernie supporters say he's leading a revolution and that he'll get things done because his supporters will put pressure on Congress, etc. If those people aren't even coming out to vote, then they certainly aren't going to create some kind of mandate by mobilizing to pressure Congress or anything like that.

 

You keep mocking the political revolution thing but it's the only way this rigged political system can be changed and he knows that, his supporters know that. Somehow this continues to elude you.

 

Honestly, after your continued support of Hugo Chavez and the **** show he left in Venezuela you just come across as a naive simpleton.

 

And....this is why Sanders is dangerous. Stupid people slurp from the cup of Bernie and Trump. Sanders should be a tenured professor at Northwestern and not a serious Presidential candidate.

 

I'm asking for a specific viable plan. I love Bernie's integrity. I don't agree with the specifics of his plans, but I love what he's trying to accomplish and that he's standing up for people who have no other voice. But just jumping up and down saying it needs to happen is not a path to change. It's a path to disaster. If you fight for a revolution and fail, it creates disillusionment amongst your revolutionaries and only strengthens the status quo. You saw it on a small scale will health care in 1994 - going for it all and failing ended any possibility of improvement for a generation and took an enormous toll on this country.

 

Seems like you are just another one of those sheep who knows nothing about the system and is forcefed whatever the media feeds you.

Sanders actually has decades of Congressional experience and a reputation for getting legislation and amendments through causing major change over the years. He has been able to get all of this done despite not being a part of either political party nor accepting money from the large corporation. He is a man who has devoted his life to fighting for people.

 

Obviously he isn't going to get everything he is fighting for passed but he will get the ball rolling in the right direction. He has spent decades in the legislative branch, he knows how the system works. It will be have to be little by little with bipartisan compromises but steps towards the right direction.

 

So in other words, he'll be like everyone else. "Bipartisan compromises" are what Obama and Hillary and every other Democrat are about. It's things like Obamacare and Dodd-Franks. Basically, it's exactly the things Sanders supporters are fighting against.

 

They are governing with the best interests of the corporations and special interests in mind. Bernie will not. He is not owned by them unlike the establishment.

I doubt anyone is expecting Bernie to be elected and everything to change instantly. He'll get the ball rolling in the right direction and bring about real change.

 

Frankly I find it incredibly rich to be posturing about as some bastion of integrity while simultaneously promising people free stuff you know will never happen, but that's just me. Forgive me for living down here on planet earth.

 

Look, I get it. You think change is sitting down with Mitch Mcconnell and getting something from him, while conceding something to him. That's the way it's been done since we've been alive.

I get it. You think change is going to happen with the steps we all know and are familiar with, with the same terminology, same people, same process.

I get it, you're a person who values the tangible more than the intangible.

I get it, Hillary being a standard politician is fine with you because that's the game and you don't believe the game can be changed. That's what you know. Some of the best products of this system have been compulsive liars. I get it.

Things are not going to change that way, whether it's Bernie or whether it's someone else down the line. Martin Luther King changed the consciousness of a nation and it was so powerful that he was maligned, harassed, and then the entire oligarchy turned on him. His ideas outlived him and that's what a change in consciousness does. It didn't work out practically, and Bernie is no MLK but the idea was correct and that's the ideology Bernie is following.

I challenge you again:

Do you really think that there is going to come a time in the future when removing big money from politics and removing large scale risk/profit from the market and compelling the most powerful people in America to pay higher taxes... will happen without there being a serious existential threat to the stability of your governance structure and economy? Or are you hoping these ultra powerful, ultra rich, highly prepared oligarchs are going to let you sneak progress by one president at a time? Do you think they wouldn't, for example, triple their spending? Do you think they won't get into paying more money to congressmen, justices, senators, mayors, governors, and anyone they can find to extend their reign?

There will not be a net improvement working this way, the entire opposition has been geared up for almost a century now to curtail that kind of NET progress. The oligarchs are not going to just give the stolen money back through congressional processes. The system is rigged, you understand. You either need to hit the reset button on this system and/or you need another system. What did this strategy achieve? Most but not all Americans got healthcare in 2016. Think about it. The richest country in history, most people got their healthcare in 2016 and apparently some are waiting. This coming from the most progressive president in recent memory.

Here you argue that Hillary is the safe bet because she will be willing to work well with other bought politicians? And what is this merry band of brothers going to achieve for the people they're out of touch with? What if she decides to invade another country, then what? Where is that going to come from? After all, we're approaching that 15 year mark.

Sorry guys, if you're looking for tangible, practical change from an instruction manual and compromise with hollow politicians, it's not going to be from Bernie you're correct, but it's also not going to change anything. Perhaps for you this is a feasible idea given you've layered brick by brick steadily your whole life and the last thing you want to see is radical change coupled with instability. But there are A LOT of people younger than you in need, there are generations after you till the end of time, there's a whole planet of people whose tolerance is at the roof.

Why aren't they out there voting? I'll tell you why. It's because following this strategy of small gains has led to decades upon decades of disenfranchising people, squeezing young people out, scaring old people to death. Debate schedules, debate rules, media coverage, gerrymandering, super pacs, voter intimidation, campaign finance... this has all happened while you got healthcare for most of the country, marriage rights, abortion rights, etc.

Is that really a win? Because it looks to me like you should have gotten the latter without giving up the former, and that's the big problem here. It seems to me that on this path, you are simply losing negotiating power with powerful interests every day.

 

I mean, if that's true can you really blame them? They've had decades upon decades to chip at the edges of this thing so that they choose voters who choose them. It's not like it's been a secret, it's just been allowed to happen by following the "lesser of two evils" strategy.

Honesty, it's a travesty that you don't get 3 days off for primary and 3 days off for national. The government should make voting easy. It should promote discussion by setting up HUGE festivals where people can speak and discuss and grab a beer at the park and have scientists, artists, musicians, professors make speeches. Make it a family affair during the day so that kids can see the diversity in their country, the important of these days.

The government should be fostering a culture of participation, there is no amount of money or time more important that those days.

Get rid of F'ing columbus day, move MLK day to coincide with these days (I'm sure he would more than approve!). Hell, Americans are the most overworked bastards in the industrialized world, those 3 days prior to voting would probably go a LONG way in reducing the stress levels and supporting decisions based on discussion and thought rather than fear and stress.

 

I've brought this up a bunch of times and you've never addressed it. I'm going to bring it up again, because while I'd prefer a Sanders presidency over a Clinton presidency, I think many of his supporters are ignoring one key issue:

Hillary has been thoroughly vetted (probably one of the reasons why so many people see her as a 'boring' candidate, even though she'd be the first female POTUS ever). She's been attacked - constantly - by the Right for YEARS now. Her national polling #s are still fairly strong against most of the Republican contenders.

The Republicans have barely said a word about Sanders. Clinton's handling him with kid gloves, because she knows she needs his voters. Meanwhile, there have been whispers out of DC that when testing Bernie's support before and after the likely lines attack that will be leveled against him by Republicans (admitted socialist who vacationed in the USSR, etc.), his head-to-head poll numbers plummet.

Maybe this seems like a moot point when Trump is the prohibitive favorite to win the Republican nomination, but when you consider the near certainty of a Bloomberg run in that scenario, things could look really bad for Bernie with two campaigns hammering him with constant attack ads. ESPECIALLY when you consider that for a significant % of Sanders voters, Trump seems to be their second choice. And we've already seen that Trump is practically immune to outside attacks.

That's not to say Bernie wouldn't have a decent chance, but you can't have a discussion about his electability without conceding that we're not talking about the Bernie Sanders we're seeing now, we're talking about Bernie Sanders after months and months of Republican attacks (which Hillary's already been subjected to).

I love Bernie's platform, but we can't lose sight of the fact that the #1 priority MUST be preventing a Trump Presidency at all costs.