Harden - and how to build a championship team around him

agree with this..think this about sums it up.

 

Harden's defense is not "inconsequential" to the Rockets being 27-28 right now. It's a major factor. Last year, when he played at least average or better defense, the Rockets got to the Western Conference Finals. They did this with Jason Terry playing point guard, Terrance Jones at PF, and Ariza at SF. Two out of those 3 are terrible defenders, and were terrible defenders last season. But now you want to spout nonsense that it's everyone but James' fault that the Rockets are under 500.

Also, why you do think one-dimensional players like Beverley and Ariza are starters here? Because you have to surround Harden with strong defenders, otherwise the Rockets perimeter defense is swiss cheese.

Finally, if James Harden refuses to dedicate himself to being a two-way player, I could care less if I guilt him into leaving. Because guess what, you aren't winning anything of consequence with that version of James Harden.

 

It's interesting. It being 100% certain that it wasn't a trickle down effect of Harden's piss poor attitude would be an equally illogical assertion.

I'd be curious to see a statistical performance of the biggest drop off years of NBA stars in defense, and then compare it to the other players on the team In the same years. maybe an age and jnjury filter to disregard off seasons that they couldn't improve (Yao)

 

two way player, to me , means the player can have an above average impact on both ends of the court. There are a-lot of great players who were never two way players (Nash comes to mind). The question with Harden is can he be close to average on the defensive side while producing close to level his current offensive production. So no, I wouldn't want to rid of him just because he is not a two way player.

 

Of course no one player is at fault for the Rockets struggles right now. But the Rockets would be much closer to title consideration if James Harden was giving the effort he gave defensively last season. That level of effort would be helping mask some of his teammates' decline in that regard. Instead his lack of effort is exacerbating the issue. What does that say about the guy that the Rockets are counting on to be the man?

I expect more out of Harden because he has MVP level talent and the Rockets need him to be that guy every night to have a shot win a championship in the future. And it infuriates me that a player of his caliber can't be bothered to do something that simply requires playing harder.

 

Good lord, you really actually believe this crap don't you?

Ariza, Howard, Beverley, Brewer, have all massively regressed defensively. Specifically Ariza.

Your continued belief that Harden's bad defense is the difference between a WCF berth and being under .500 is mind boggling.

No ****ing ****, sherlock. That's called team building. That's the whole point. And there-in lies the problem, those one-dimensional players, like Beverley and Ariza, have become zero-dimensional players.

Then you would be an idiot. You would cut off your nose to spite your face. You know who else played no defense? Larry Bird, a top ten player of all time. You know who else played no defense? Charles Barkley, a top five PF of all time.

Your arbitrary benchmark of a player having to be a two way player in order to be on this team is incredibly stupid, not to mention incredibly hypocritical, seeing as how you are seemingly perfectly fine with one way players like every single other player on this team.

 

Harden's defensive improvement last year is not why we made the WCF.

Harden's defensive improvement + the significantly improved play from what we've seen this season from nearly everybody else in the lineup is why we made the WCF.

 

Other than Dirk's Mavs, name me another team that won a championship with their best player being a terrible defender? Harden doesn't have to be an all NBA defender to be the best player on a championship team. But he does need to be an average defensive player for that to happen.

 

Dirk wasn't a great defender, but he wasn't 2016 Harden level terrible either.

 

I think we are basically saying the same thing. He needs to be average or close to it defensively to it if he's going to lead us to a championship else we find someone else to lead and have Harden play second fiddle as the number two (i.e dwade role) or he needs to be somewhere else. .

That's different than being a two way player ( according to what I think a two way player is), and shipping him out blindly because he is not.

 

I don't know about that, he was a decent rebounder. He wasn't this huge liability on defense either

 

Never once have I said it is the only reason for the massive drop-off in the team's play. But whether you like it or not, it is a factor.

Wow, you really showed me. Gee, you don't suppose the Rockets are a bit hamstrung in how they can put this team together because their best player won't commit himself to playing decent defense year in and year out.

James Harden can't sniff Barkley or Bird's jock strap right now. Larry Bird led Indiana State of all teams to the NCAA championship game. In the NBA, Bird played on some of most talented teams of all time, and until Curry came along, he was arguably the greatest shooter ever, which Harden isn't. Know who else doesn't defend? Melo. Believe it or not, I'm not in favor of trading Harden right now. But I see some very concerning trends that need to be resolved for the Rockets to win a championship with him as the team's best player. And if he refuses to improve his weaknesses going forward, it wouldn't be a stretch to trade him if you got the right return.

Not every player on a championship team has to be a two-way player. But your best one, as a general rule, should be, because typically it means he is in MVP consideration. And without an MVP level player, you typically aren't winning anything. Curry is exception (but he tries on defense), Dirk when the Mavs won versus Miami is an exception. James Harden last year would fall into the category of a two-way player, or pretty close. He's not playing that way this season.

 

Incoming all stats post. Put 100% faith or 0% faith in the results. I don't care, just throwing out info....

I started out with the assumption by someone that Harden might be the worst starting player on defense in the league and decided to look at players just at SG with significant minutes who have a worse defensive real plus minus than Harden and then look at those players defensive rating and defensive box plus minus.

Player : Defensive real plus minus/ Drtg / defensive box plus minus

Harden : -1.28/108/-0.5

Klay : -1.60/106/-2.1
Derozan : -2.51/107/-1.1
Hood : -1.94/108/-1.5
Wade : -1.64/105/0.0
Redick : -3.08/110/-3.0
Matthews : -1.75/108/-0.2
Afflalo : -3.05/112/-2.1
Wiggins : -3.61/112/-2.8

Then I wanted to just compare those three stats for Rockets players who played for us last year and have played significant minutes this year and see just who had the biggest decline

Harden:
14/15 : -0.16/103/1.0
15/16 : -1.28/108/-0.5

Terry:
14/15 : 0.36/106/-0.7
15/16 : -1.88/112/-2.7

Bev:
14/15 : -0.30/106/0.3
15/16 : -.0.15/111/-1.0

Ariza:
14/15 : 2.36/103/1.3
15/16 : -0.80/109/-0.1

Jones:
14/15 : 0.80/102/1.9
15/16 : -3.21/110/-1.0

Brewer:
14/15 : -1.24/105/-0.6
15/16 : -0.56/110/-1.0

Howard:
14/15 : 2.08/100/1.2
15/16 : 3.64/104/1.5

Again just putting out the info.

 

Obviously, it takes a team effort to make it as far as the Rockets did last season, just as it takes a team effort to play as poorly as the Rockets are now. But Harden's defensive improvement was a huge piece of the puzzle last season.

 

Of course. It's necessary for Harden to get back to that level defensively.

He's just not the only thing holding the Rockets back, despite what so many want to believe.

 

I don't know if ppl really believe that. I think it's just easier to say because he's the teams best player.

The funny thing about the NBA imo is that the term 2way player was never used even 5 years ago. I never heard that thrown around as much as it is now. It's like ok we're going to elevate this guy to superstar status because he tries really hard on Defense and is an ok offensive player (paul George, Jimmy butler) but we're going to downplay players like well really just James harden who puts up historical hof top 10 offensive stats of all time but is not the best defender.

10 years ago James harden would be seen as a sure fire top 3 player by everyone now there is a lot of ppl that think he's not even top 10 (delusional) ask any coach who's the toughest game plans in the league and they all have harden in the top 5. How can teams have such problems stopping you but outsiders think the guy is not that good or my favorite overrated. As if averging 28/7/6 more effecient than some of Jordan's best years is so easy?

Harden is one of the most disrespected and looked over great players I have seen in a long time. Lebron got sandbagged but no one said he wasn't good. A lot of ppl think harden really isn't that good. Blows my mind.

 

Larry Bird played no defense? He may not have been the best one on one defender but he was definitely a good help defender. Three time all defensive second team to be exact.
As for Barkley... well there are many reasons why Dream has those rings and he doesn't.
We can keep switching role players all we want but until our "franchise player" improves himself, the Rockets are doomed as a team. When Harden decides to play like a two way player these "one dimensional" players like ariza and beverly will play alot better.

 

Right, its Harden's fault.

 

Maybe people didn't say the exact phrase 2 way player, but they definitely valued both defense and offense.

And everyone thought Harden was top5 last year. Not so much this year for good reason