Based on what? Harden has already acheived more than TMax... did you miss the point where Harden has already played 22 playoff games MORE than Tmax entire career AND been more successful in the playoffs AND in the regular season. TMax is what some small minded bbsers accuse Harden of being, a volume chucker who was all about himself. If you watch Harden play with open eyes you might realize he isn't who you are trying to force him to be...
They don't have Clutch City in their heart brother It's not even about age, Clutch City is like the Force, Hakeem was a Jedi Master, Tmac was just Jar Jar Binks.
That's the thing that some people do not even understand. Even Daryl Morey and Les. They want a Harden or Mcgrady type player because they are fun to watch but in reality they don't take us far. Part of it is coaching and strategies but part of it is the player themselves. TinMan if you have any tapes of kenny Smith, Drexler, aSam Cassell and Horry when they surrounded Hakeem. People need to watch how no one just stoodbaround with a thumb upbtheir asses. It is so stupid. Everyone was rotating so Hakeem could easily get an assist or the bucket. If Dwight can't score he ahould be racking up assists! Hell even as r****ded Tmac was he at least knew how to help Yao out. Harden Stands and looks lost on offence without the ball as much as he does on defence. He has no idea what to do on the court without the ball. We will never win anything like that. Tin Man please show us some tapes and someone highlight them. It wasn't just that Hakeem was a stud. It was everyone on that freakin roster made Hakeem on the stud. Everyone helped each other out! Does Morey not or Bickerstaff see that? When we got past the first round With Yao Battier and Artest it was because Everyone contributed. When we beat the Clips it was because everyone contributed. Ariza didn't have to guard to players because Harden couldn't. The Ball moved. If dwight couldn't score it was passed out to someone who was moving into position to be free and could score or was Slashing. JOSH Smith, Terry, Brewer and Ariza all did that and could pass the freakin ball. Harden is no different than Rudy Gay at this point. He is no different than Tmac. They both stop the ball. If you are holding the ball 99% of the time, then you will get more assists. Simple as that. That's the stupid thing about these stats that MIT junkies tend to overlook. Morey needs to look at the stats of that championship roster. EVERYONE GOT ASSISTS! No one was ball hogging and they played as a team. Harden, Kevin Martin, Tmac are all just fools gold. There shouldn't be a poll about who is the better leader but who doesn't suck as much.
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This is what I am talking about! Everyone passed and everyone shared the rock! Is this style of basketball so foreign to people on this board? All the Tmac and Harden nuthuggers need to watch the tapes. Watch Horry, Smith, cassell get the pass from Dream. They didn't just sit and stand still at a set spot. They all move, slash, attack the rim and help each other out. Heck watch Drexler with Dream who is playing a similar role to Harden with Dwight. So sad that the fans are just debating about Harden and Tmac being leaders. What that 90's team did in those tapes was show leadership.
They don't understand that a star makes his teammates better, trusts his teammates, trusts his coaches McGrady fans and Harden fans have never seen leadership on this level before. They need a lesson on Clutch City. It's better than the force. <blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">In the '95 Playoffs, <a href="https://twitter.com/DR34M">@DR34M</a> led the NBA in scoring. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/ClutchCity?src=hash">#ClutchCity</a> premieres TONIGHT at 9 PM ET on NBA TV <a href="http://t.co/s55MtYbBeX">pic.twitter.com/s55MtYbBeX</a></p>— NBA TV (@NBATV) <a href="https://twitter.com/NBATV/status/608030803763683328">June 8, 2015</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script> <blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">TONIGHT. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/ClutchCity?src=hash">#ClutchCity</a> 9pm/ET on <a href="https://twitter.com/NBATV">@NBATV</a>. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/tunein?src=hash">#tunein</a> <a href="http://t.co/6sd7kNUxXI">pic.twitter.com/6sd7kNUxXI</a></p>— TurnerSportsPR (@TurnerSportsPR) <a href="https://twitter.com/TurnerSportsPR/status/607970434173173760">June 8, 2015</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script> <blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">.<a href="https://twitter.com/MikeFratello">@MikeFratello</a> on Rudy Tomjanovich's coaching style. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/ClutchCity?src=hash">#ClutchCity</a> premieres June 8th at 9 PM ET on NBA TV! <a href="http://t.co/f6btJxpLkU">pic.twitter.com/f6btJxpLkU</a></p>— NBA TV (@NBATV) <a href="https://twitter.com/NBATV/status/606483061258059777">June 4, 2015</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script> <blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">.<a href="https://twitter.com/steve21smith">@steve21smith</a> on the Hall of Famer and 1994 <a href="https://twitter.com/NBA">@NBA</a> MVP. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/ClutchCity?src=hash">#ClutchCity</a> premieres tonight at 9 PM ET on NBA TV <a href="http://t.co/50t4qhFgJ8">pic.twitter.com/50t4qhFgJ8</a></p>— NBA TV (@NBATV) <a href="https://twitter.com/NBATV/status/607955297135521792">June 8, 2015</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
agree with the rest other than Harden and Tmac were the same flashy players. Both were volume scorers Harden's game was boring while Tmac was the cousin of Air Carter Vinsanity. Backboard to himself dunking. Both led to nothing much but Tmac was the flashier one. Harden is not FUN TO WATCH.
by "they" i think you meant james harden and his fans, eh? this thread is somewhat pointless, as it comes down to leadership, neither mcgrady or harden is good at it. many arguments in this thread were just about who has achieved more (the answer will be harden), or who's more talented (the answer will be mcgrady). it's really not the thread is about.
Those team wasn't perfect either so let's not make it seem as though they were. They had plenty of bad movements especially after the 1st championship. Thus the reason they went out and got Clyde Drexler. They struggled with ball movement, turnovers and horrible chemistry. Their head were still in the clouds and it cost them big time early on. Harden is struggling with that as we speak. Yes he didn't win a Chip like they did back in the day, but individual he was very successful. I wouldn't call Kevin Martin and Tmac fools gold either. They didn't have the talent level like the Championship teams did and like we have now.
And Tinman how long did it take Dream to trust his teammates? He struggled with that until Vernon Max checked him on that. How long did it take Michael Jordan to become a great leader? He most definitely didn't trust his teammates earlier in his career. It took the great Phil Jackson to knock him off his high horse and buy into the teams concept. But hey of course you won't bring those known facts to the discussion.
Phil said one of the differences between MJ and Kobe is that MJ was a natural born leader early on while Kobe didn't really learn how to be a leader until late in his career. Even then we saw how short lived that was. This idea that MJ or Hakeem weren't leaders is stupid when you consider their nobody teammates while guys like Larry and Magic played with 3+ HOF'ers their entire career.
Earlier in MJ career he was all about Michael Jordan and if anybody had something to say about. Then it would end in a fight. None of his teammates before Jackson got hired as the coach didn't like MJ period. Dream on the other hand didn't start truly leading until he was in his 30's. Rudy T also had to tell him he had to TRUST his teammates. It even came out the horses mouth.
If you had a start a team with a prime McGrady or a prime Harden (assuming last year was his true prime), you be a fool not to take McGrady. McGrady was a better scorer, passer, rebounder, defender and a more versatile game. If McGrady played for this type of offense Houston is running, he would average 30+ easily. Houston has a great set of role players that caters to a superstar. Hustle guys, defends, shoot 3s... But yet playing with a player like Harden seems to suck the life out of them this year for some reason.
One season. All of that was one season. The previous seasons were all first round exits. And what did he do after that one season? He left. And what happened after he left? He won a championship and went to two finals while the wolves have been stuck in the lottery since. I'm sureeeee Wolves fans are fine with that. While Dirk and Tim were winning championships. The only difference between tmac and KG is that KG had ONE SEASON and he was healthy throughout all his time in Minny. That's all. So no. Wolves fans don't hate KG because they're not irrational. I'm not saying McGrady is a Rockets legend. He's not, but he doesn't need the constant ridicule he gets on this board for a lot of things that were out of his control primarily his health. So yeah. KG had ONE great season with the Wolves. But before that? Consecutive first round exits. After that? Consecutive lottery picks. And KG was a damn good player, so fans don't blame him for the wolves failures because those failures were out of his hand. Something you can't understand after so many years. Harden is also on the same route as KG leading us to multiple first round exits, but I guess it's fine since we lost in the WCF in 2015. Yeah, it's going to be fine in 2018 when we lose yet again in the first round and Harden leaves us afterwards and teams up with Paul George and Demarcus Cousins or something in Indiana. But 2015! He won a MVP and led us to the to the WCF! Players by them selves don't make glory. Having a freaking good team and staying healthy does. **** outta here.
I think tin is fine with haren being atrocious because mac broke the ice for him....so now the bar has been set lower and tin is accepting
Where are you getting any of this information from? Nowhere. You're making it all up. MJ got in a heated argument with Cartwright in which Bill threatened to break his leg if he ever spoke to him liek that again. He punched Steve Kerr during their 72 win season. He shat on Horace Grant constantly. Yet every single one of these guys love MJ and call him the GOAT. All of these incidents are from the championship runs. So what exactly are you talking about that teammates hated him and he wasn't a leader? You mean pre Phil days yet Doug Collins calls him one of the greatest leaders he's ever coached. This was 37 ppg MJ were talking about. Was it his teammates? Couldn't have been Oakley who is one of MJ's best friends. Woolridge? They played together like 1 season. Corzine? Lol..Gene Banks? Brad Sellers? Never heard anything from them...because no cares what scrubs think. Young MJ was supposed to be a **** leader? The same young MJ that was a national champion? So again, where do you get your information from? From these ideas of MJ fighting..but those incidents happened during the times when he was a leader. You know the story of him punching Kerr. You don't ever hear the story of MJ feeling awful about it and calling Kerr and apologizing and becoming great friends from that moment on bc MJ gained so much respect for Kerr not ever backing down from him. Horace Grant is always defending MJ's status when people ask him about Kobe or LeBron, even though MJ was super hard on him, just like he was on Kwame. Only difference is Horace gained MJ's respect by stepping up and proving he belonged while Kwame faded away in insecurity. The only thing you want to say is that MJ trusted his teammates more during the championship runs. That doesn't mean he wasn't a good leader before that moment. Same thing applies to Hakeem. All of his teammates say nothing but the greatest things about him. They don't say or put an asterisks of "after he turned 30 years old." Both of them were the stars and franchise players from day 1, dating back to College for Akeem. "One of the biggest differences between the two stars from my perspective was Michael's superior skills as a leader," Jackson said. "Though at times he could be hard on his teammates, Michael was masterful at controlling the emotional climate of the team with the power of his presence. Kobe had a long way to go before he could make that claim. He talked a good game, but he'd yet to experience the cold truth of leadership in his bones, as Michael had." - Phil Jackson
