What is your definition of gun control

Well that's just incredibly simple minded.
So, according to the numbers, you'll reduce gun suicides while increasing homicides but the overall numbers will be down so great, right? I mean, sure the streets will be more dangerous, and suicidal people will still try to kill themselves, but they'll use less effective methods like taking pills, cutting themselves, or hanging themselves so everything will be better!

 

They aren't exclusive. Mental illness is a part of both. Tackling that help both.

Even if they are mostly exclusive, no one is making the argument that you only tackle the suicide portion.

And even if someone said let's tackle the suicide portion as a higher priority, how would doing that increase the violence portion?

 

Nor is anybody arguing that. But the fact remains that the more guns you have, the more people getting shot by guns (for whatever reason) there are - that is an empirically verifiable fact.

This should not be intuitively surprisign but yet the nonsense from the pro-gun crazies indicates that they fail to accept this is reality. It's as much reality as the sky is blue.

Page 1, post #8

 

The numbers show that in states with harsher gun control laws, the gun homicide rates are higher than those with more lax gun control laws.

You can feel free to worry about suicides, I'll worry about the more important issue of homicide and instances of people hurting other people.

 

It affects the community of friends and family close to the person that killed him/herself. Statistically if the person that committed suicide had a kid, their kid is more likely to kill him/herself than if the parent remained alive. I would also think police, the fire department and EMS response are mostly desensitized to suicide dispatch calls but nevertheless it does affect them as well and they are apart of the community as you put it. Plus it's a human life we're talking about. Not a criminal. It's someone very troubled for whatever reason that feels it's the only answer left at that point in time. I don't understand how you can be so casual about that.

I would also think there is a correlation among veterans who have not handled returning home well and gun related suicides but I've no stats to back that up. I agree with you that it's a person's own choice if they decide to commit suicide but stats don't lie that 9 out of 10 survivors of the first attempt DO NOT go on to make a second attempt.

 

See here's why I'd vote for disarming everywhere. You make harsher gun control laws in one state, any person can go to a nearby state and make the simpler purchase. That's the flaw to it. You ban guns everywhere and all of a sudden there's no easy market to turn except the black market. As comedic as Jim Jefferie's bit about gun control is, he does bring up some solid facts. One is a $1,000 assault rifle used in the Sandy Hook can be bought online at Walmart and delivered to your home. Purchasing one from the black market is $34,000. Criminals can't afford that cheddar nor can autistic mentally deranged teenagers like is often times the ilk that go on to do mass school shooting.

That leaves well to do money savers or rich people to those purchases and they're less likely to make a black market purchase than a criminal that's often times in a poor economic class and feels criminal activity is the best means for survival.

Suicide rates drop. Mass shootings become non-existent and crime as a whole goes down as has been demonstrated in other countries like England and Australia once they made guns banned.

Are you still going to have your criminals resort back to knives and other modes of weapons? Absolutely. But you're not going to get mass knife stabbing massacres anymore and more importantly you're removing access to guns to mentally ill people that choose to off themselves or harm other people.

 

I believe the right to own and bear arms is fundamental. I'm also a practical person, so I like background checks before buying guns, especially hand guns. I also agree that there should be practicality in closing loopholes in the ability to sell lots of guns at shows without back ground checks.

I'm hesitant in a registry of guns, but I do like the idea of training/licensing for carrying a weapon in public.

I believe its the Swiss that is the Euro country that gun ownership is accepted. Most people serve in the military, and part of their national defense is a "gun in every home" mentality. They have very limited gun violence due to a few reasons: large amounts of training, practice and respect for guns. They also have a fairly homogeneous society, culturally, socioeconomically, and racially...this limits a lot of the conflict with shared views on things. Additionally, probably lots of mental health availability, a healthy respect for guns as "tools" (identifying its the person that produces violence), and background checks for ownership.

So what can we learn from the Swiss at least if we will continue to have a gun culture in the US:

1. Diagnose the problems with the people and treat them before they become violent as much as possible; while creating a way for the treatment to happen.
2. Education and training leads to healthy respect for guns and seems to reduce violence
3. Background checks to keep those guns out of the hands of those that would commit violence as much as possible

 

The Swiss used to perform eugenics on the mentally ill and they are a lot stricter with immigration than most other nations. Their population is also significantly less dense than the U.S.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_sterilization

I guess you could trust everyone to own a gun if you knew you could cut out the mentally ill with forced government sterilization. Seems more invasive than removing guns from someone but I suppose that's one approach towards fixing criminal activity and suicides.

EDIT: You said Switzerland. My 'Muricaness confused for Sweden. That said they did perform sterilization as well.

 

This is possible if you have a comprehensive, compulsory national health insurance system as in Switzerland, or as the pro-gun/mass shooting forces in the US call it: Slavery.

 

Of course suicide affects the community, but not in the way that violent crime does. People can be sad that a person chose to end their life, that decision can affect children, but it is still their choice. Any choice a person makes can affect the community, it doesn't put it on par with violent crime.

When it comes to veterans, the huge difference is that when veterans attempt suicide, they have an abnormally high rate of success and usually use a gun. That's actually why the female suicide rate among veterans is so much higher than the overall female suicide rate, non-veteran females generally don't use guns and are far less likely to accomplish their goal on the first try. They use pills or razors or whatever and due to the state of emergency medicine, they fail A LOT.

Either way, suicide and gun control are not really related and wouldn't be if those on the side of strict gun control didn't need to bulk up their numbers and if the numbers when related to homicide and gun control weren't so against their narrative.

Going the suicide route is understandable, but it will ultimately fail because not that many people are going to be concerned about some crazy man sitting in a room blowing his brains out like they would if there was an actual physical risk to the community. Sorry, that's just how it is.

Now you'll hook the far left crowd that believes in a large federal government to "save people from themselves", but that's not really that big a crowd despite how loud they can be.

 

Why would I waste my time arguing against a tautology? 100% of black gay murderers are black and gay. So what? Does that require that I support legislation against being black or being gay? When you can't argue the point, change the subject I suppose.

 

Good video. Disgusting reaction by the Fox News commentators.

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Yes, diversionary tactics - this is a common tactic of pro Gun hardliners, for whom no amount of dead kids is enough (unless they are fetal..in which case...)

See for example, assholes whose response to a thread like this one is to propose confiscating all the Negros' guns or tossing them in jail as a harmless rhetorical thought experiment ...not that he ever agreed with that!

http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?p=10174300

 

Since you brought is up again, and no one ever bothered to answer, which of those two gun control proposals (neither of which I support) would result in a greater decrease in gun violence?

 

Yeap.

"Stance" instead of "definition."

 

I don't know.

I'm not going to bother to run the "negro-gun-free" zone numbers for the same reason that I don't generally bother with point-by-point rebuttals of Donald Trump outbursts.

Here is something that would reduce gun violence though - reduction in the number of guns, which are very strongly correlated with gun violence.

 

The no gun show loop hole definitely! The president explicitly gave a currently happening scenario that results in many deaths in Chicago during the town hall meeting, but you probably will keep on ignoring it.

Unauthorized sellers buy weapons in bulk in gun shows in Indiana and travel over state lines in Illinios and sell them to gang bangers in Chicago.

Let me guess, you are going to move the goal post now.

 

I think we need to close the government hanind out guns to criminals loophole. California cops are losing M16s left and right. The ATF is dumping guns over the border to show that guns are easily dumped over the border (brilliant) and this latest terrorist used a gun that a cop had stolen.

They are completely irresponsible with their guns.

LOL