France shuts down three mosques in security crackdown

I generally think of religion as useful for 2 things:

1) creating a moral framework for people who don't want to spend TOO much time thinking about their ethics

2) creating personal inspiration and a narrative to ground your purpose around

Which is fine and dandy so long as it stays confined to the individuals within. The general trend of adopting societal secular mindsets has been correlated with a rise in prosperity, and a decrease in violence across the board. Notwithstanding the constant daily news cycle, we have never lived in more peaceful times by any aggregate measure of violence (# of homicides, # of assaults, # of wartime deaths) ex: http://ourworldindata.org/data/war-peace/war-and-peace-after-1945/

Shutting down a mosque does nothing for that long-term trend, it only serves to give radicals an excuse to hide deeper, creates a valid impression that the Muslim community is being targeted, and given that Islamic extremism thrives on deviating from Western norms, I'm not sure how much bigger of a stamp of approval you can give them than that.

 

Which religion is a timesaver? From what I can tell they are all time consumers.

 

Well in a broad sense, religion provides a moral authority, morality becomes tricky for those who want a logically sound moral system without that moral authority.

 

I've got a bias. The least generous interpretation of it would be to say that "athiests don't live in foxholes", and I haven't been through a whole lot of foxholes.

With that said, yeah, religion used as intended is kinda like a cigarette. Going to congregations where you are primed to think a certain way due to social pressure is a big time-waster all around, and there are a lot of time wasters in how religion is currently set out.

That said if you were to pick and choose some religious tenets, principles, and ideas, it wouldn't be half-bad for developing a comprehensive moral outlook--but yeah, I realize that is against what most religions try to force you to do.

 

BRAVO!!! This is a serious sign France will shutdown these hate factories. Worshippers can move to normal mosques where that hate won't be preached or tolerated.

 

I'm not religious at all, actually I'm really anti-religion and yet have more morals than some very religious people in my circle. some of the **** by friends do and get away with is crazy for someone who acts a certain way on sundays. it blows my mind that this doesn't bother them. got some catholic friends who go absolutely facking crazy, but always get relief with weekly confessions. what a joke.

 

I don't think you understood what I was saying. I wasn't saying that religious people had "more morals" or were more morally inclined people, rather that their moral system has an unquestioned moral authority in their deity. Those who are not religious struggle with a lack of legitimate moral authority to ground their moral system no matter which one they subscribe to.

The issue of "says who?" comes into play when you don't have that moral authority and that's what I was talking about. Theists can always point to a deity and be done with it, atheists or anti-theists really have no solid answer for that question.

 

Wrong, I don't struggle at all. My moral authority is built on empathy which is experienced and learned by every single sane and normal human being at a young age. Actually many animals in the animal kingdom (who don't have organized religions or deities) have been proven to display and react with empathy too.

Also an atheist would say your question is illogical. There is no one, so looking for someone is flawed logic. If you want to find "someone," look inside at your emphatic self.

 

Well maybe you don't struggle with not having a moral authority grounding your moral code, but people who think about it more in depth usually are.

For example, you talk about empathy, being "good" and justify it by saying that a lot of people feel it and that many animals do it too.....well rape and murder are every bit as represented in the animal kingdom and among every human civilization in history, does that mean it is also "good"? Who is to say that empathy is a good thing? Basically what you'd be left with is saying "because I think it is" which is fine, but that's not really a reason for anyone else to accept your moral code as any more valid than pretty much any other moral code.

 

Have you sat through a congregation and get to know the people there for months?

Broad strokes buddy.

 

Wow...I really don't know what to say to you dude. I'm a Muslim and moved to the US from India when I was 10 years old. I've been here now for over 25 years of my life. Throughout my life, I've obviously met hundreds if not thousands of Muslims in the US and across the world. Never have I encountered one single Muslim that was or would be sympathetic to any terrorist organizations. If I did, you bet your ass I would report to the police ASAP. Can't think of anyone that loves this country and respects what it has given me and my family more then myself. I would do anything to protect it.

What ISIS or Al Qaeda preaches and does reflects a lot more negatively on moderate Muslims then it does others. Its because of these assholes that I have to put up with stares and statements such as yours every time there is a terrorist attack.

I get it though. This is what they want...for all of us to give into fear. So its easy to generalize 1.5 billion Muslims due to the action of a few thousand.

 

FTW is wrong but so are you. That's NOT what ISIS and Al Qaeda (Iraq) want. They are proactive fundamentalist who believe these are the final battles of the the Apocalypse. They literally want to usher in the end of the world (as we know it) and transition to a caliphate ruled Islamic World. This is one of the reasons we see them destroying any/all teachings and history that contradicts their vision. It's another reason their recruiting is so good. Young crazy Muslims want to be part of the end. It's like a crazy rush and dream for them. So the stares and statements you get, just an effect but not their end game.

Also, the reason people can generalize 1.5 billion Muslims is because it's easy. It comes from ignorance but ignorance from both sides. Of course it's ignorant to generalize 1.5 billion people, I mean c'mon that's ridiculous. However, it's also ignorant for 1.5 billion Muslims expect the rest of the West to completely understand their not them. Islam is completely foreign to the West, of course they don't understand the history, complexity, and divisions of Islam. Again I'm not saying it's right, but it's reality. I have never thought that the 1.5 billion Muslim community engaged, announced, clarified, themselves. Again you don't have to but don't be upset when normal folk (ignorant) can't tell the difference among 1.5 billion Muslims. I mean these are folks that know Republican or Democrat. Conservative or Liberal. Black or White. Non-Muslim or Muslim. It's difficult but that's why you have to communicate to the West and explain it to them. They understand the complexity of Christianity because it's not foreign!!! Again, IMHO I don't think the Muslim West ever did. Very much operated in a silo. Of course recently we've seen more of introductions and clarifications but that was after their faith was already being dragged through the mud for awhile. It might be too late unfortunately.

 

In France you need government authorization to operate a Quaranic school?

 

What if its one of those brain-washing type madrasas?

 

Yeah.......... that is perhaps the case for some people. However I know quite a few very devout people that have spent more time wrestling with morals and what their personal values are.

As far as religions "forcing you to do something", if that were the case religions would be static, which is not the case.

 

A couple points.

I do not doubt that you are anti-terrorism, are a good citizen and very loyal to the United States.

However, I am not Muslim and have met Muslims that did support terrorism, openly. I have also known Muslims that strongly believed in the adaptation of Sharia law in the United States. I went to college with someone that went to law school with the hope of fighting for the right to spread Sharia law.

Also, we are not talking about a few thousand people. The number of Muslims that support the adaptation of Sharia law punishments for both Muslims and non believers is not a small percentage. It is many, many millions. Having said that, there also appears to be a cultural divide within Islam. There are some Muslims that have integrated their faith into living in the modern world and are wonderful people. However there are also vastly different cultural values in some areas (primarily in the Middle East) than you see in the West and that causes problems.

I do agree with you that the acts of fundamentalist Islam reflects negatively on other Muslims and also people of Middle Eastern heritage.

 

Is sharia a fundamental part of Islam? Will a dominant Muslim nation ever allow freedom of religion or freedom of speech against Islam?

 

I don't doubt what you are saying either. If some idiots want to come here and spread Sharia law, I'm all for deporting their asses back to the hell hole they came from. Why move here if you want to live like you are in the stone ages?

The sect of Islam I grew up with preaches integration and loyalty to the country you live in. So while I may not have dealt with any extremists, I am willing acknowledge there are probably a lot more then I would like to believe.

I think a lack of education and jobs lead to young Muslim men in the Middle East turn to radicalization. That is obviously not an excuse, but something has to be done long term to prevent this cycle.