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"Not the same group"

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by Clutch, Nov 25, 2015.

  1. Amiga

    Amiga 10 years ago...
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    Shhhhh.. Conspiracy theories are fun. Nothing much else is fun with the Rockets.

    There was a change in that game. Howard tried to set picks for Harden on multiple occasions.
     
  2. Mkieke

    Mkieke Member

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    I haven't re-watched any games, but I'll be focusing in on this during the Sixers matchup. I think you're partly right:

    1) With Capela in, the opponent's backup 4 or 5 is in, and he has an easier time than Howard getting open - Howard is a pretty poor roller, IMO

    2) Harden often swings to the other side in an attempt to get Dwight the ball from the wing. I believe it was our first play against Memphis. He's looking for Dwight, just can't get him the ball. Many assume he's just looking for a shooter rather than Dwight, but I think his primary plan is to get Dwight the ball. Unfortunately, none of our starters are above average post passers.

    However, I feel like Harden rolls 90% of the time when he's playing P'N'R with Capela, which forces his man to pop over, leaving Capela open. Maybe I'm seeing what others are wanting me to see, but it feels like Harden is asking Dwight to do the majority of the work, and never makes a move for the basket.
     
  3. Raven

    Raven Member

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    That's......troubling.

    :confused:
     
  4. basketballholic

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    Ok Whistlebritches, here's the first quarter possessions to start the Memphis game with Dwight in there:

    Possession 1: Harden/Howard PnR, Howard wide open for lob, James throws it to Terrence on the left arc, ball reverses, Howard still wide open, Ariza throws it to him for the dunk

    Possession 2: FB, Running break off steal, Jones misses a finish, Rox get OR, Ariza misses 16 footer Rt FT line extended

    Possessions 3: FB, Dwight rebounds MEM miss, Jones brings ball up, finds Terry left side of arc, Terry misses 3

    Possession 4: 10:04 Dwight/James PnR out of right corner, Dwight wide open for the dunk, James backs up then tries to throw a speedball to Dwight after the defense has re-positioned and there's now 2 defenders between him and Dwight, turnover

    Possession 5: PnR between Dwight/Jones from left side, Jones gets the ball to Dwight going to hoop, Dwight gets fouled with no call on the layup attempt. Nice play, worked. Refs should have called it.

    Possession 6: 9:27 4 on 3 break off defensive rebound, Dwight runs the floor and is iso'd on Gasol at the lip, Harden swings to ariza to terry back to ariza at the right hash, ariza takes 3 with Barnes now back and covering him and misses, Harden or Ariza could've punched the ball down to Dwight at 9:27 and easily gotten at least a foul call against Gasol.

    Possession 7: Dwight catches out high coming down, Ariza cuts to basket, Dwight finds him for the layup attempt, foul, free throws

    Possession 8: DR, in transition, Harden pull-up 3, good

    Possession 9: Harden/Terry pick-n-pop at the top, Dwight stands right baseline, Harden drives, Gasol dives to him, Dwight wide open for the lob dunk at 8:04, all Harden had to do was throw it to the right of the rim, Harden throws it to Terry at the top for a missed 3, Dwight might have gotten fouled on this lob, but it's still the better play

    Possession 10: 4 on 4 break off blocked shot, Ariza drives, Howard wide open for the lob at 7:35, all Ariza had to do was throw it UP! Instead he tries to throw it straight around his own defender, Howard was expecting the lob, turnover

    Possessions 11: 7:17 Same Harden/Terry pick-and-pop play as Possession 9, Dwight wide open again right of the rim, all Harden needed to do was throw it up to the right lip, Harden goes right side to Ariza for another missed 3

    Possession 12: fast break, Terry with missed 3 from right hash, Dwight trailing play

    Possession 13: another fast break off a turnover, ball swings to right corner, at 6:33 Howard has Gasol pinned in the circle, Ariza is staring right at him, Ariza drives the basketball into him, then throws it out high to Terry/Harden and we almost get a back court violation, reset into Howard PnR, Harden does feed him the ball on a bounce pass, Howard gets blocked at the rim by Tony Allen with no call. Harden had to take a dribble and turn to complete this play. You could tell a lack of timing here. But good play. Took a sensational (and questionable) play by Allen to stop it. However, Ariza should have simply thrown Howard the ball at 6:33 when Howard had Gasol pinned in the lower circle. That's either a foul against Gasol or a bucket or both.

    Possession 14: fast break off MEM turnover, Harden layup, Dwight not back, stole ball from Allen at rim

    Possession 15: Harden iso left hash, Dwight weakside, never open, Ariza drives and finishes

    Possession 16: Harden at top, swings the ball left, Dwight standing right baseline basically out of the play, Ariza swings it to Bev in left corner, missed 3, to compound this mess, Harden doesn't get back, MEM gets layup and foul as Bev races back from the left corner to attempt to stop break, Harden holds up his hand to attempt to take the foul (lame)


    There you have the first Howard/Harden stint in the 1st quarter.

    There were 16 possessions.

    Out of those 16 possessions there were 11 possessions where Dwight was back down and a part of the offense.

    Out of those 11 possessions, we ran PnR with Howard 3 times, twice with James and once with Terrence. The other 8 possessions we ran something else, either Harden iso, or Harden/Terry pick-and-pop, or Harden just swinging the ball around the perimeter and us taking a 3 without running anything at all!!!

    But let's delve into those 11 possessions a little further smartypants.

    Of the 2 pick-and-rolls Harden ran with Howard, Howard was open on BOTH OF THEM!! Harden didn't even attempt the first one. And the second one, Harden waited too late, and then tried to force it!!

    That's it!! That's all the PnR action we got from Dwight/Harden early. The rest of the possessions were a hodge podge of pick-and-pop and swing the ball around the perimeter for the MISS!!

    During these 11 possessions there were 10 opportunities to get Dwight the ball in scoring/finishing position. They got it to him 3 times.



    Don't try to tell us that Harden not looking for Howard is just a conspiracy theory. It's not a theory. It's a fact. Three PnR's out of 11 possible possessions. And one of those PnR's was an afterthought with the shot clock running down because they had ignored Howard early in the possession. And Harden basically misses or ignores him on the other two possessions and ignores him when he's wide open for the lob dunk on other possessions or he has Gasol totally pinned on the lower circle and Harden is staring right at him. Multiple possessions where Dwight is open and Harden (and others) don't even throw the ball to him or they throw it low, or wait too late until the paint is congested and try to whip bullet passes to him. It's totally ridiculous. We're not talking about running sets for him. We're talking about throwing him the ball so he can cram it down!!

    I'm telling you a legit point guard like Paul or Rondo or Rubio or probably even Lawson would have a field day throwing the ball up to Howard. They'd have had about 5 assists to him in the first 6 minutes of the game!!!!!! Howard would've had somewhere betwen 8-10 points and Gasol would've probably had a foul or two.

    Give me a break dude. I'm not going to break down every possession of the whole game for you. Just give me a break with your nonsense. Please.
     
    #384 basketballholic, Nov 27, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2015
    1 person likes this.
  5. Mr. Clutch

    Mr. Clutch Contributing Member

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    I agree. The whole idea is ridiculous. I've been to three games and there is no icing.

    I will say Harden is having much more trouble getting by his man this year and that's affecting his assist numbers
     
  6. pippendagimp

    pippendagimp Member

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    i noticed that too. he isn't getting off the floor as well when attacking the rim either.
     
  7. chenjy9

    chenjy9 Numbers Don't Lie
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    This. Harden just seems a few steps slower this year. Maybe it's still the ankle injury or maybe it's something else, but he does not look nearly as explosive when he catches his defender(s) off guard with his jab steps and hesitation dribbles.
     
  8. PeppermintCandy

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    Maybe it's the shoes..
     
  9. FTW Rockets FTW

    FTW Rockets FTW Contributing Member

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    Here is my conspiracy theory with a HAPPY ENDING

    Harden clearly is trying to force management's hands or Dwight himself to opt out. There is a clear disconnect between the two. I have hardly seen an alley oop a game from harden to Dwight. if Josh Smith can throw multiples alley oops to Dwight, harden should be able to. I mean all it takes is a strong pick and a roll. Dwight may have lost his athleticism compared to his prime but he is still one of the most athletic centers in the league. That play should be bread and butter.

    For some reason Rockets play hot potato around the perimeter and jack up a contested 3.

    The happy Ending is Durant.

    1. Durant has had issues with Dwight and has probably told Harden he will not come to Houston if Dwight is there.
    2. The Math works so much easier with Dwight gone.

    Of course I'm just making up stories to feel better.
     
  10. Rio Rocket

    Rio Rocket Member

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    i remember once terrell owens accused romo and witten of having secret meetings where they made up secret plays, and then during the game i guess he believed that romo would wink at witten or something and theyd run that play instead of the play that romo told everyone else.
     
  11. Mr. Clutch

    Mr. Clutch Contributing Member

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    Yeah he doesn't explode to the basket like he used to. If he doesn't get the foul call, its often a fast break the other way
     
  12. Mr. Clutch

    Mr. Clutch Contributing Member

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    Yep, a lot of times with those jab steps be barely moves laterally.

    I was hoping he was just out of shape but it's still an issue at this point in the season
     
  13. pippendagimp

    pippendagimp Member

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    the past 2 games, he's been getting swatted in the paint far too often as well. i think in previous seasons he would attack the defender at the rim and now he's just drifting to the sides trying convert off the glass everytime.
     
  14. Rio Rocket

    Rio Rocket Member

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    james was just nasty unguardable last season. so far obviously not on the same level. on the other hand it does seem like the paint is clogged up more consistently this season and his jump shot has been less reliable
     
  15. malakas

    malakas Member

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    I think there's a limit on how much we can "blame" Lawson for this mess. A player who plays so few minutes now, shouldn't affect the rest of the players IN the game. Lawson wasn't here last year, he doesn't play now, what stops the rest of the group of players who are mostly the same, from playing the same way as last year?


    I also agree with bballholic. It's obvious if you pay attention how Harden ignores Howard. Please download the game and try to go possesion by possesion like bballholic did.

    I also saw our advanced stats in defence. Our halfcourt defence is surprisingly good. (by good I mean just above league average).
    The problem is ofc transition defence. Which is the responsibillity of the WINGS.
    Also very troubling is the % of Moreyball FGA we allow (56.3%)
    http://nyloncalculus.com/team-ratings-and-statistics/
     
  16. Amiga

    Amiga 10 years ago...
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    Probably have something to do with defense. Capella is still mostly unknown.
     
  17. Amiga

    Amiga 10 years ago...
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    But seriously, the two players I miss the most from last season are Smith and 50 years old Prig. Those two are on opposite ends of each other but they bring in combination of hearts, hustle, and smarts (Prig obviously :)). Dang you Morey.
     
  18. KlutchQT

    KlutchQT Contributing Member

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    The difference is most glaring (TO ME) in games where Dwight does not play. Watch how often Harden runs the P&R with Clint, lobs to him, looks for him generally. I'm talking over the course of 15 games, not one game. Again, I don't think he is purposely marginalizing Dwight -- Dwight's disinterest in running P&R or something more innocuous may be the culprit, who knows.
     
  19. joeson332

    joeson332 Member

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    i AM MIGHTY JOE YOUNG JOEY DORSEY
     
  20. heypartner

    heypartner Contributing Member

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    omg. That was a DESIGNED play that resulted in a Howard dunk via ball movement. It was the first play of the game and an inbounds play . Please anyone who has the game recorded, watch the very first possession.

    ----------------------------------------
    Harden is aggressively trapped at the top by Allen and Gasol, and Green leaves Ariza to pick up Howard who is not really rolling fast, and the left-side defenders are still at the lane to provide help.

    Harden, without hesitation on the trap, passes to Terrence which gets the defenses moving towards him. Now the left side commits to Terrence and Terrry, and we see their structure fall apart vs the initial trap of Harden. We have them in an unbalanced, four out 1 with no help on Howard.

    Swing pass to a wide open Ariza and Green is on an island, so leaves Howard to run out to our "deadly three point shooter." :) Pass to Howard for a dunk, his absolute best look of the possession.
    --------------------------------------​

    I'm stopping here, because this is prime example of cfnets not understanding ball movement. And they say this is Harden icing-out Howard, with agenda-colored glasses, sipping the conspiracy cool-aid DD is passing out.

    If that play (and it is a designed, practiced play) was run by the Spurs, you'd describe how perfect it was. You'd say they made 4 passes to get the defense moving to get an easy layup, that the first trap didn't get Duncan open enough, and the defense was still in their structure, so Pops trained them to move the ball to release Duncan for an easy layup.

    Can't believe you list that as icing-out Howard. There is no excuse for providing such a poor analysis of that play.


     
     
    #400 heypartner, Nov 27, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2015
    1 person likes this.

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