Planned Parenthood Director caught on tape selling aborted baby parts

giddyup, I applaud you for keeping up this fight in the D&D even with all the BS that comes with it from the liberal riff-raff. I agree with you 100%!!!!!

 

Believe me, I get tired of being called names and derided for my stance. But I always bounce back!

I probably know more about it that anyone here. I've lived with the guilt, the depression and the tears of a woman who has "chosen" to abort a child. I've just loved her through it all, but I'm the bad guy who wants to stomp all over a woman's right to choose.

I'm protecting the child first and, in the end, my position also protects some of the women who struggle after the fact. How many I do not know, but protecting the child's right to life is enough incentive for me.

All of you who are so willing to sacrifice that child's life for the sake of medical research, why don't you just go sacrifice your own life now for the same ends? No yours won't be fetal cells, but I'm sure they can learn a lot from a healthy human body in the prime of life. Then of course there is organ donation. You can probably bail out 6-9 people who are up against it.

NOW THERE'S A CHOICE YOU COULD BE PROUD OF!!

Make that decision for yourself not some innocent child in the womb sucking her thumb.

Soon, one of these chumps will chime in and ask me why I don't lock her up...

 

you still don't get it.

You can't salvage anything out of an "illegal" abortion. Nations that criminalize abortion actually have a higher abortion rate than countries that pay for them in many cases.

Your basic assumption is that putting women in jail will stop abortions: that is merely an assumption backed with no fact. It presumes cruelty will trump all else--an assumption proven disastrously wrong in the prohibition of alcohol, drugs and more. You have offered no other solutions in this discussion, only accusations, and stereotypes.

No fetal lives are taken because of medical research. A legal, safe, balanced medical system that respects women fully and looks to data over ideology does allow for things like a dramatic reduction of infant mortality though.

 

I honestly think people who are attacking you based on your personal story are being vile and punching below the belt and I get your emotional response, but the truth is feelings shouldn't trump outcomes, and emotions shouldn't trump data.

I think you're taking a train of thought that will hurt a whole lot more than it will help. Who you are and what you've been through gives me some context to that, but that fact remains.

 

My aim is to prevent abortions through responsible sexual behavior, embracing parenthood responsibilities and adoption failing those. My interest is in saving lives not tissue.

I don't want to see anyone jailed, but I also don't want to see babies denied their lives. The pure solution is to deal responsibly with the situation that you have created. There are no losers in that scenario.

Not sure how willingly terminating fetal lives is not "taking them." that seems at best a disingenuous play on words.

 

No, you are dealing in a ultra hypothetical world where everyone can be responsible. No amount of parenting will suppress adolescent hormones. There will never be a world where no adolescents make mistakes. If you make the one last ditch avenue they have when they do make that mistake illegal, then yes, they will find ways. Just put yourself in the shoes of a 16 year old girl who made this mistake. She's scared ****less. She is not ready for the pain and torture that is pregnancy. Yes, if abortion is illegal, she WILL find a way to remove that embryo out of her. A scared ****less teenager might do that.

Now, all you accomplished by making the procedure illegal is making that 16 year old girl risk her own safety by seeking unsafe and non-sterile means to abort. Not only that, but now that aborted fetus will make zero contributions to medical research. It's a lose-lose situation.

 

Bull****. Many are able to suppress adolescent hormones. In life, if you make a mistake you deal with it... don't run away from it and don't kill it.

You make people sound hapless.

Being scared ****less is not an excuse to take another life unless you are defending yourself from an attacker.

Pregnancy is pain and torture? C'mon kind of overly dramatic there. Every mother does it, some do it multiple time. My son is house-sitting in Costa Rica. One of his neighbors is a mid-wife who herself has had 19 children and delivered some 2200.

So you don't even consider acting responsibly as an option?

 

You are just one giant bundle of naivety aren't you. How cute.

I'm not speaking of 'what OUGHT to happen'. Teenagers OUGHT to be more responsible. However, in reality, there will always be irresponsible teenagers. That isn't an 'ought' statement aka 'normative' statement. It's a 'positive' statement. It's a statement of 'what is'. We don't live in a perfect world buddy. There will never be a situation on this planet where every teenager is responsible and has responsible parents... ever, neither in the past nor the future. I'm sorry, but that is reality. And when you make abortion illegal, all you are accomplishing is forcing the hands of a scared ****less 16 year olds to commit an illegal act which they will do.

And the fact that you believe a scared ****less pregnant teenage girl who is willing to abort her pregnancy values human life any less than you just irks me the wrong way about you.

 

Only problem with that is that this was my stance long before the shadow of abortion crossed my own path.

The first data point is 1 dead baby.

I haven't really experienced people attacking me for my personal experience. They are attacking me in ignorance of it which is a huge disservice to all of us and gives my point more validity.

 

I graduated high school in 1972. We had about 700 kids in my graduating class. If half of them were women that's about 350.

According to the Guttmacher Institute in 2010, there were 60 pregnancies per 1000 teenage girls.

So my high school graduating class should have had 20 pregnancies. We had one. Roe v Wade became law one year later in 1973.

Tell me again how this is better... for everyone.

 

So your high school is a representation of every high school in the U.S?

I see why people are berating you for your personal experience. It's because IT"S ****ING ANECDOTAL.

In a debate that requires objective analysis, resorting to anecdotal statements just worsens the debate. I'm glad your high school is an amazing outlier.

I know what you are going to state as a response. "My school only had one teenage pregnancy because our community taught responsibility." I'll bet my left nut that if we applied 'Giddyup's Class On How To Not Get Knocked Up' to every high school in America, you will not see amazing results such as one teenage pregnancy per high school. Teenage kids irk. Deal with it.

I honestly don't know what you are referring to to teaching kids "responsibility". I hope you aren't referring to abstinence only education, because if you are, almost all empirical evidence suggests that abstinence only education actually increases teenage birth rates.

 

You're a trip! Did you not read where I said that no one was berating me for my personal experience? As I said, a trip...

Which high school do you nominate as being representative?

You do know that "data points" are just a bunch of anecdotes counted up? Every data point has a story behind it-- actually unique human DNA, just like a fetus.

The main point about my story is how much worse we are off than we were in 1972... while everyone crows about supposed progress.

If teenage kids irk, they should deal with it.

 

Another 'OUGHT' statement.

They ought to deal with it. The reality is many won't and many will find ways to abort their pregnancy legal or not.

Here is a POSITIVE statement. The only thing banning abortions will accomplish is increase the amount of back alley abortions. Learn to debate using positive statements rather than normative statements.

Empirical evidence is 'a bunch of anecdotes counted up'. Yes? And? Ever heard of a concept known as 'sample size'?

Now if you have some empirical evidence that supports your claim that we were 'better off' before Roe vs Wade besides your anecdote about your one high school, then you have some valid assertions to debate with. As of now, you are running on anecdotes and emotions. That isn't going to persuade a rational mind in a debate.

 

you can type, talk, etc etc etc until you have swollen fingers and blue in the face. but it will never be illegal again to have an abortion.

the notions that you have are not wrong. but in my opinion misguided. you should put energy into education women or girls (people) into not getting pregnant in the first place. by whatever means are necessary. otherwise you will perpetually be spinning your wheels. you have to understand it will NOT become illegal again.

hopefully over time though as people evolve and technology increases they will have simpler means for people to not be put in the position to need one. male birth control or other means.

bless your heart though, like i said it's in a good place.

 

We "ought" not exceed the speed limit. We "ought" not cheat on our taxes. We "ought" not use indoor paint to paint the exterior of our home What's the matter with "ought" statements?

People are not nincompoops. They need to be accountable and held accountable for their actions. I've been involved in birth control decisions since I became sexually active... forty-plus years ago. ZERO unwanted pregnancies... someone "dumb" as me! :grin:

Sample size? What do you think made my high school so very special? You implied that a low pregnancy/abortion rate was not possible. I proved it was. By the way, she kept her baby!

"The first data point is 1 dead baby" seems like a pretty rational claim to me. It is an inescapable fact, but the one you all try to elude.

 

Ya... You didn't understand my point at all.

 

Yes I did. Do you think your argument is so compelling that in order to not agree with it, I don't understand it?

Let the person making the bad choice feel the consequence of their bad choice rather than the child who must give her life up or the rest of us who must pitch in to support that "bad choice."

Would you deny that "an anecdote" lies behind every statistic you can muster? If so, then your numbers are not legitimate!

Worse off? How about fifty million dead babies? Now I'm the first to admit that we don't really need fifty million more citizens but I'm also the first to admit that to have snuffed them out is not the right solution. You make a baby, you raise the baby... or let someone else. Worse off? How about a forsaken character that tolerates killing our most innocent lives as they grow in their mother's womb? Worse off? We have stripped out accountability in our culture.

 

How do you know this for a fact? Did you call all 350 of them? It was 1972 and, as you mentioned. abortions weren't yet legal. What makes you think your high school was special and that girls didn't get pregnant and didn't have abortions? I'm fairly certain that it's not, then or now, in people's nature to advertise this...especially in a time when it wasn't legal.

 

Giddy personally made sure none of them did any back ally abortions. Because you know... When girls do back ally abortions, giddy knows. He just knows:grin:

 

Nope... you don't. You are still debating using normative statements to back your assertions.

"A pregnant teenage girl OUGHT to feel the consequences". You live in a giddy hypothetical world where you can not only teach every adolescent responsibility but every adolescent will follow through with the teaching.

Like I said before. Banning abortions will simply increase the amount of back ally abortions. Plain and simple. Should a teenage girl OUGHT to do a back ally abortion? No. But many will if it is illegal and there is no avenue for a sterile professionally done procedure.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/12/world/12abortion.html?_r=0

See... positive statements. Countries where abortions are illegal have similar abortions rates to countries where they aren't. That's called hard empirical evidence and isn't anecdotal and an 'ought' statement. Deal with reality giddy, not your emotions. If your argument is strong enough, you will be able to.