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Who should be running pick and roll when Harden sits?

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by basketballholic, Mar 27, 2017.

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Who should be running pick and roll when Harden sits?

  1. Bev

    1 vote(s)
    1.1%
  2. Gordon

    9 vote(s)
    9.8%
  3. Lou

    77 vote(s)
    83.7%
  4. All three are basically even

    5 vote(s)
    5.4%
  1. basketballholic

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    Simple question. Who do you think runs the pick and roll best when Harden sits?
     
  2. htownrox1

    htownrox1 Member

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    Definitely Lou.

    In fact he should be the primary ball handler when Harden sits. I love Bev but his strength is not ball handling or running the pick and roll.
     
  3. heypartner

    heypartner Contributing Member

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    imo, the question is kinda irrelevant., since MDA uses different parts of his system with the other guards.

    Question is better stated: Should we also run the Harden/5 High PnR with the other guards....vs a question which assumes that it is a dominant play in the bench offense.

    We don't run PnR much without Harden....at least not the high PnR variety that Harden is noted for. MDA's offense is very rich in alternative ways to get backup guards playing to their strength. There's a lot more 21-Series/Pistol action (MDA kinda invented that), with double drags to get Gordon into the center, and DHO plays, etc. (I even recall early on MDA saying he decided not to run much 21-Series with Harden as he did with Nash, because Harden's High PnR is so lethal.) We also play a lot more 5-out motion without Harden. When we see a PnR, I'm finding it is more as a secondary option attacking from the wing. Recall that Lou and Bev to Capela/Nene are at different angles than Harden a lot....because it is often as part of other action. It still remains a quick hit play in primary and secondary breaks, though.

    MDA has such a rich playbook. More gets revealed to us when Harden sits. We just don't run the High PnR as much without Harden.
     
    #3 heypartner, Mar 27, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2017
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  4. Snow Villiers

    Snow Villiers Member

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  5. BigMaloe

    BigMaloe Contributing Member

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    Definitely not bev. He should always be playing the spot up 2 guard/defender role.

    I'm fine with Lou and ego sharing duties although I feel ego shoots better and is much more comfortable when he's dribbling.

    For instance
    0 dribbles he shoots 36.8% from deep
    1 dribble he shoots 37.9% from deep
    2 dribbles he shoots 51.3% from deep
    3-6 dribbles he shoots 37% from deep
    7+ dribbles he shoots 44.4% from deep

    Which reiterates my observation. He overwhelmingly shoots 0 dribble catch and shoot 3s. Would like to increase his dribble and shoot behind the screen opportunities. It just feels like dribbling into his shot is more fluid for him.

    Also, I want much much more spot up corner 3s for Lou where he shoots .545% since being in Houston.
     
  6. javal_lon

    javal_lon Member

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  7. Moleb

    Moleb Member

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    Lou, and NEVER Gordon. Gordon has massive tunnel vision. I mean MASSIVE! The only thing with Lou is that he sees the open man, but chooses to look them off and shoot it himself. So he is aware of his open teammates, but he chooses not to pass it to them. Gordon on the other hand is completely oblivious to his surrounds when it comes to finding open teammates.
     
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  8. Mirri3000

    Mirri3000 Member

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    This should be overwhelmingly favored towards Lou. However, Lou should just be having the ball in his hands 90% of the time Harden sits anyway. He has similar skill sets (drawing fouls, creates his shot, good pnr, good passer), and is by far the best ball handler not named Harden, and perhaps maybe including Harden.

    I say this, but we are still a dominant team no matter who holds the ball when James sits, give it to whoever and let us roll with whats workin.
     
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  9. deb4rockets

    deb4rockets Contributing Member
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    I have always noticed that too!!!!! You couldn't have stated it better. All your comments are what I have always been thinking when I watch him. I vote for Lou!!!!
     
  10. EightDoobies

    EightDoobies Member

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    Lou without doubt.
     
  11. RudyTBag

    RudyTBag Contributing Member
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    Bev running pick and rolls when Hardrn sits makes me want to cry.
     
  12. alethios

    alethios Member

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    Lou's lobs are money (usually). Gordon is an ok passer, but not as willing and not as accurate as Lou.
     
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  13. J Sizzle

    J Sizzle Member

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    Not Beverley or Gordon
     
  14. Plowman

    Plowman Contributing Member
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    Sweet Lou with the rock in his hands.
     
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  15. FTW Rockets FTW

    FTW Rockets FTW Contributing Member

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    This should be Sweet Big D Lou

    He is true triple threat in that he has that quick first step to drive to the rim, can also easily draw fouls and can step back and hit the 3

    Sweet Lou is basically a mini version of Harden aka Harden-lite. Even their perimeter D is similar.
     
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  16. basketballholic

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    I agree with Lou playing the offensive point when Harden sits. I appreciate that MDA had this massive playbook. But I don't believe it's as effective as pnr. Sorry. He should give the ball to Lou and keep running the same stuff we run with Harden.

    As far as Gordon being a better shooter off the dribble, you can't really say that with any certainty. Not enough data.
     
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  17. heypartner

    heypartner Contributing Member

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    But MDA doesn't, primarily because Lou can't find the open shooters or attack at Harden's level. Sure, he's got the best lob to Capela, but that's just first option. MDA opens his playbook up to match their strengths. This isn't theory, like the theory we should just keep running Harden's plays, because we don't. We need diversified offense with the bench, and that's what Lou and Gordon provide.

    Getting Gordon in 21 series coming around picks to the middle is a very strong play. Those plays have rollers, too. That's why they are called Double Drag. Same with the GSW-style 5 out motion we run to get the defense moving to make it that much easier for Lou to penetrate and get his lethal looks in the corner. Lou is also great off-ball. We have plays for that, just like LAL did.

    If GSW can do it with Curry and Klay, we can do stuff like that with Gordon and Lou. It has the best future gain to add more. The PnR from the wing is still there. The High PnR from transition is still there. Even in set offense, it is still there. But MDA doesn't use it as the dominant play without Harden, just like GSW never did or does, and I like that he's not.

    The Poll is fine: as long as we aren't looking at basketball so simplistically by saying the Harden PnR should be run more with the bench. Then we are in theory-land, ignoring the beauty of what MDA is working towards with the bench....and further ignoring the great skills of Harden to find *every* open shooter or roller, and implying Lou can do that too. Naw, he's good for the lob, though.
     
    #17 heypartner, Mar 28, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2017
  18. crenshaw

    crenshaw Member

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    you must not watch a lot of games, gordon willl kick it out to an open man when its available. he will hit bev dekk and even brewer before.
     
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  19. basketballholic

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    Good points. I do like Gordon coming off the screen. However, the question is very relevant. Somebody has to facilitate. The poll really shows more how we feel about Bev's and Gordon's ability to facilitate more than anything else. We all know Lou isn't a true facilitator. We know he's a shoot first SG in a point guard's body or at the very least a shooting point guard that's not a great passer. But even though he's a relatively poor distributor he's still miles better than the other two and nobody else on the team is even close. All this talk about how much Bev's playmaking has improved was just that, just a bunch of talk. Bev only looks good playmaking when he's doing it secondarily to Harden when Harden is on the floor. When Harden goes out the last thing we wanna see is Bev hobbling around court like drunk Captain Hook in a typhoon dribbling the basketball from piller to post.
     
    #19 basketballholic, Mar 28, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2017
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  20. Ramo$e

    Ramo$e Member

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    True, I voted all three, but I then remembered Beverly lost the ball out of bounds on a position when he was pressed hard down the court. Even Gordon has a decent crossover and goes left side strong with ease.
     

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