Patriot Act to be possibly expanded

[rhadamanthus]

http://news.com.com/2061-10789_3-573...6302&subj=news

June 7, 2005 7:22 PM PDT
Senate panel votes to expand Patriot Act

Forget scaling back the Patriot Act.

Instead, the controversial post-9/11 law would be expanded to give the FBI new powers to demand documents from companies without a judge's approval, according to a vote late Tuesday by the Senate Intelligence committee.

The final text of the Senate Intelligence committee's amendments was not immediately available (here's a draft dated last month), and reporters were barred from the secret session during which the vote was held.

But the proposal appears to grant the FBI more power to seek information from banks, hospitals, libraries, and so on through "administrative subpoenas" without prior judicial oversight. The subpoenas are only supposed to be used for terrorism or clandestine intelligence cases.

One other detail: the FBI may designate that the subpoenas are secret and punish disclosure of their existence with up to one year in prison (and five years if the disclosure is deemed to "obstruct an investigation.")

In testimony in April, FBI director Robert Mueller said: "The administrative subpoena power would be a valuable complement to (existing) tools and provide added efficiency to the FBI's ability to investigate and disrupt terrorism operations and our intelligence gathering efforts."

The ACLU denounced the Senate Intelligence committee's vote. "In a move antithetical to our Constitution, the new 'administrative subpoena' authority would let the FBI write and approve its own search orders for intelligence investigations, without prior judicial approval," the group said in a statement. "Americans have a reasonable expectation that their federal government will not gather records about their health, their wealth and the transactions of their daily life without probable cause of a crime and without a court order."

In theory, the expand-the-Patriot-Act bill now goes to the Senate floor for a vote. But some negotiations are likely to take place between the Intelligence and Judiciary committee, and that could affect the final form of the legislation.
-------------------------------

Hooray for our new police state.

[tolne57]

So now they want to be able get information without going through a judge and then put people in jail if they talk about it? What happened to the whole checks and balance premise?

[mc mark]

911 changed everything

[rhadamanthus]

Originally Posted by tolne57 So now they want to be able get information without going through a judge and then put people in jail if they talk about it? What happened to the whole checks and balance premise?

Heck, what happened to civil rights period?

We threw it all out to fight terrorists. We gave up our freedoms to defend our freedoms from the freedom-hating terrorists. Someone stop the madness.

[Invisible Fan]

One other detail: the FBI may designate that the subpoenas are secret and punish disclosure of their existence with up to one year in prison (and five years if the disclosure is deemed to "obstruct an investigation.")

If the terrorists knew about the subpoenas, we'd lose the War on Terror.

Chalk up another on the list of the admin's blatant disregard for the Freedom of Information Act.

[SWTsig]

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

- Benjamin Franklin

[rhester]

Originally Posted by rhadamanthus Heck, what happened to civil rights period? We threw it all out to fight terrorists. We gave up our freedoms to defend our freedoms from the freedom-hating terrorists. Someone stop the madness.

All part of the process to form a more perfect dictatorship.

[wnes]

Originally Posted by rhester All part of the process to form a more perfect dictatorship.

"Perfect dictatorship" is indeed an interesting oxymoron.

Countries like South Korea, Singapore and Malaysia were ruled for long times by some forms of authoritarian leaders. Their economies thrived. The citizens generally enjoyed peace and prosperity while the governments had relatively low corruptions and scandals.

On the other hand, "democratic and free" countries like Mexico didn't do nearly as well - manifested by high crime rates, rampant government corruptions at many levels, and generally unappreciable economy.

Question is, do we need any form of "perfect" dictatorial government in US to survive the geopolitical uncerntainties of our life?

[rhester]

Originally Posted by wnes "Perfect dictatorship" is indeed an interesting oxymoron. Countries like South Korea, Singapore and Malaysia were ruled for long times by some forms of authoritarian leaders. Their economies thrived. The citizens generally enjoyed peace and prosperity while the governments had relatively low corruptions and scandals. On the other hand, "democratic and free" countries like Mexico didn't do nearly as well - manifested by high crime rates, rampant government corruptions at many levels, and generally unappreciable economy. Question is, do we need any form of "perfect" dictatorial government in US to survive the geopolitical uncerntainties of our life?

Nope.

Money can't buy me love.

I don't trust dictators even if they help the economy.

In a nation diverse as America we are being held together now by a thin thread to our Constitutional protections against tyranny. Let the Patriot Act expand and we move a few steps down the road...

Immigrants never flock to dictatorships looking for freedom, opportunity and civil liberty.

It is too late anyway.

[pirc1]

Originally Posted by wnes "Perfect dictatorship" is indeed an interesting oxymoron. Countries like South Korea, Singapore and Malaysia were ruled for long times by some forms of authoritarian leaders. Their economies thrived. The citizens generally enjoyed peace and prosperity while the governments had relatively low corruptions and scandals. On the other hand, "democratic and free" countries like Mexico didn't do nearly as well - manifested by high crime rates, rampant government corruptions at many levels, and generally unappreciable economy. Question is, do we need any form of "perfect" dictatorial government in US to survive the geopolitical uncerntainties of our life?

Dictatorial government would function much more efficiently than democracy if it is ruled by a competent dictator. The problem is many dictators are not compentent, check the history of mankind, how many great kings or emperors are there? I would hate to imagine what would happen if Bush was the emperor of the United States for the rest of his life.

[wnes]

Twenty some years ago, there was this political humor on a magazine which struck me profoundly.

A (West) German, an English, a French, and a Russian debate in a casual gathering what is happiness in life.

The German talked first about his concept of happiness. The English ridiculed it as being rigid and narrow-minded and presented his view. The French, of course, laughed at both - any happiness without romance is meaningless to him.

Finally, the Russian spoke: "You are all wrong. Happiness is when you heard someone knocking on your door, you opened it, two man announced: "Igor Ivanov, you are arrested", you replied: "I am sorry, but Igor Ivanov lives next door"."

[ROXTXIA]

9/11 was the best thing that could have happened for this President.

Patriot Act. Gotta love that name. Always under the guise of "freedom." When George uses that word, I cringe, because freedom is not something that really interests him.

Going after Saddam. Not that we're gonna miss the guy, but what price will we continue to pay to remove a dictator that couldn't even threaten his own neighbors? And I bet Daddy isn't even proud: the little turd too badly wanted to step out of Daddy's shadow. Now we get to proselytyze (sp?) in the name of Christ and the good ole U.S. of A. And getting our young people killed in the process, while ignoring (or even establishing) dictators friendly to the U.S. (see also, press blackout; any country ending in -stan; Africa[list of countries]).

Environmental rollbacks, deregulation, etc. Argue for or against it, fine. But wartime Presidents get a lot of slack in this regard. Things are either ignored or not really talked about publicly. "You're rolling back environmental regulations that help keep air and water clean etc etc!" "Hey, we're at war." "Oh, yeah, sorry. Where are my priorities?"

Oh, well. This is my punishment. The conservatives had Clinton to hate for eight years.

[rhadamanthus]

By JIM ABRAMS, Associated Press Writer 22 minutes ago

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050610/...ncivil_hearing

GOP Chairman Walks Out of Meeting
WASHINGTON - The Republican chairman walked off with the gavel, leaving Democrats shouting into turned-off microphones at a raucous hearing Friday on the Patriot Act.

The House Judiciary Committee hearing, with the two sides accusing each other of being irresponsible and undemocratic, came as President Bush was urging Congress to renew those sections of the post-Sept. 11 counterterrorism law set to expire in September.

Rep. James Sensenbrenner, R-Wis., chairman of the panel, abruptly gaveled the meeting to an end and walked out, followed by other Republicans. Sensenbrenner declared that much of the testimony, which veered into debate over the detainees at Guantanamo Bay, was irrelevant.

Rep. Jerrold Nadler (news, bio, voting record), D-N.Y., protested, raising his voice as his microphone went off, came back on, and went off again.

"We are not besmirching the honor of the United States, we are trying to uphold it," he said.

Democrats asked for the hearing, the 11th the committee has held on the act since April, saying past hearings had been too slanted toward witnesses who supported the law. The four witnesses were from groups, including Amnesty International USA and the American Immigration Lawyers Association, that have questioned the constitutionality of some aspects of the act, which allows law enforcement greater authority to investigate suspected terrorists.

Nadler said Sensenbrenner, one of the authors of the Patriot Act, was "rather rude, cutting everybody off in mid-sentence with an attitude of total hostility."

Tempers flared when Rep. Mike Pence, R-Ind., accused Amnesty International of endangering the lives of Americans in uniform by referring to the prison at Guantanamo Bay as a "gulag." Sensenbrenner didn't allow the Amnesty representative, Chip Pitts, to respond until Nadler raised a "point of decency."

Sensenbrenner's spokesman, Jeff Lungren, said the hearing had lasted two hours and "the chairman was very accommodating, giving members extra time."

James Zogby, president of the Arab American Institute, speaking immediately after Sensenbrenner left, voiced dismay over the proceedings. "I'm troubled about what kind of lesson this gives" to the rest of the world, he told the Democrats remaining in the room.

House Democratic leader Nancy Pelosi, in a statement, said the hearing was an example of Republican abuse of power and she would ask House Speaker Dennis Hastert to order an apology from Sensenbrenner.
------

Democracy my ass.

[Saint Louis]

Originally Posted by rhadamanthus By JIM ABRAMS, Associated Press Writer 22 minutes ago http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050610/...ncivil_hearing GOP Chairman Walks Out of Meeting WASHINGTON - The Republican chairman walked off with the gavel, leaving Democrats shouting into turned-off microphones at a raucous hearing Friday on the Patriot Act. The House Judiciary Committee hearing, with the two sides accusing each other of being irresponsible and undemocratic, came as President Bush was urging Congress to renew those sections of the post-Sept. 11 counterterrorism law set to expire in September. Rep. James Sensenbrenner, R-Wis., chairman of the panel, abruptly gaveled the meeting to an end and walked out, followed by other Republicans. Sensenbrenner declared that much of the testimony, which veered into debate over the detainees at Guantanamo Bay, was irrelevant. Rep. Jerrold Nadler (news, bio, voting record), D-N.Y., protested, raising his voice as his microphone went off, came back on, and went off again. "We are not besmirching the honor of the United States, we are trying to uphold it," he said. Democrats asked for the hearing, the 11th the committee has held on the act since April, saying past hearings had been too slanted toward witnesses who supported the law. The four witnesses were from groups, including Amnesty International USA and the American Immigration Lawyers Association, that have questioned the constitutionality of some aspects of the act, which allows law enforcement greater authority to investigate suspected terrorists. Nadler said Sensenbrenner, one of the authors of the Patriot Act, was "rather rude, cutting everybody off in mid-sentence with an attitude of total hostility." Tempers flared when Rep. Mike Pence, R-Ind., accused Amnesty International of endangering the lives of Americans in uniform by referring to the prison at Guantanamo Bay as a "gulag." Sensenbrenner didn't allow the Amnesty representative, Chip Pitts, to respond until Nadler raised a "point of decency." Sensenbrenner's spokesman, Jeff Lungren, said the hearing had lasted two hours and "the chairman was very accommodating, giving members extra time." James Zogby, president of the Arab American Institute, speaking immediately after Sensenbrenner left, voiced dismay over the proceedings. "I'm troubled about what kind of lesson this gives" to the rest of the world, he told the Democrats remaining in the room. House Democratic leader Nancy Pelosi, in a statement, said the hearing was an example of Republican abuse of power and she would ask House Speaker Dennis Hastert to order an apology from Sensenbrenner. ------ Democracy my ass.

Sort of sounds like a scene out of Animal House. I can see Dean Wormer now baning the gavel.

Are we all on double secret probation?

[AggieRocket]

Originally Posted by mc mark 911 changed everything

I am so tired of hearing that 9/11 changed everything. 9/11 was not only a physical attack on us, but it was also an attack on our principles, our values, and our way of life. I like to believe that something sets us apart from everyone else today and every other power in history. We have wealth and might today, but so did many nations and empires before us. The difference between us and the powers that preceded us is that through our might and our wealth, we are also just. We are fair, honest, and equitable. We have values and principles that guide us. When people say that 9/11 changed everything, they are saying that those values, freedoms, and principles that define us are no longer applicable. That is sad.

As bad as 9/11 was, 9/11 was not the worst tragedy this country has faced. We overcame a Civil War. We overcame a Depression. We overcame slavery and segregation. We overcame the Cold War. We made many mistakes, but we didn't sacrifice our American identity. No event in our history "changed everything." The only times we changed, we changed in the name of progress and we emerged better. We went towards Emancipation; not away from it. We went towards integration, not segregation. The analogy continues.

When we say 9/11 changed everything, that is a victory for our enemies.

[AggieRocket]

Originally Posted by ROXTXIA 9/11 was the best thing that could have happened for this President.

As much as I hate saying that, you're right. This was a divided country before 9/11. 50% of the population didn't even consider GWB the legitimate President of the United States. It was Kennedy-Nixon all over again.

9/11 put that partisanship on the back burner. Nobody cared who was in power. We were all Americans; end of story. Of course, GWB couldn't hold on to that unity. Between the war in Iraq, the Patriot Act, etc., we are a divided country again.

[giddyup]

'The public strongly backs the Bush position, according to a new Washington Post-ABC News poll. Fifty-nine percent of those surveyed said the act should be renewed, while 39 percent said it should not."

[bigtexxx]

Originally Posted by giddyup 'The public strongly backs the Bush position, according to a new Washington Post-ABC News poll. Fifty-nine percent of those surveyed said the act should be renewed, while 39 percent said it should not."

Exactly. The "end of the world" liberal crowd around here lives in their own little fantasy land where they bash Bush 24/7 without thinking twice about the topic at hand. Critical thinking is not taking place. I'd be interested to hear how many of those who have lost loved ones to terror (9/11, Afghanistan, Iraq) are opposed to this.

[FranchiseBlade]

Originally Posted by bigtexxx Exactly. The "end of the world" liberal crowd around here lives in their own little fantasy land where they bash Bush 24/7 without thinking twice about the topic at hand. Critical thinking is not taking place. I'd be interested to hear how many of those who have lost loved ones to terror (9/11, Afghanistan, Iraq) are opposed to this.

First you bemoan the lack of critical thinking, and then want people with emotions involved to such a level that it would seemingly preclude critical thinkging to give us expert testimony?

To critically analyze the latest report it looks like the hijackes weren't successful because the FBI or CIA lacked the authority to do what needed to be done, it looked like it as agency terroritorialism, and lack of communication between agencies that allowed them to procede with their plans.

I would be willing to bet that those who lost loved ones to terror would to address the real issues and not be sidetracked with the Patriot Act.

[SWTsig]

Originally Posted by bigtexxx Exactly. The "end of the world" liberal crowd around here lives in their own little fantasy land where they bash Bush 24/7 without thinking twice about the topic at hand. Critical thinking is not taking place. I'd be interested to hear how many of those who have lost loved ones to terror (9/11, Afghanistan, Iraq) are opposed to this.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

- Benjamin Franklin