Thank You Very Not Garner.

[Dreamshake]

Now let me preempt this thread by giving Garner credit for his role in bringing the Astro's back from the dead just a few months ago.


I have been a Stro's fan since I watched my first game in the dome and Got a very cool Jose Cruz signature on my glove. So no "bandwagon" bashes here please.


I was wondering if someone, anyone, could defend some of the basic bad baseball decisions Garner made throughout the playoffs. But let me focus on Game 7.


How can you twice, when Kent being the first man up, reach base safely, NOT bunt him over, with the abysmal performing Morgan Ensberg due up? Its basic baseball. Morgan a man for the series almost in game 7 plunged his average under the .100 mark. It was rediculous, and each time I thought of the quotes from game 5 or 6 where Garner stated he doesnt make any changes in his game plan or managing due to the playoffs, and LaRussa said "absolutely" you do. You think Tony pulls that suicide squeeze in the regular season? Terrible decisions both times to allow Morgan Sucksburg to swing away, did anyone expect Morgan to do anything other then what he did.


I dont care what Pujols lifetime average was against Clemens. The man was as hot if not hotter and more consitant then Carlos Beltran. All series long Albert came up in the clutch and wasted our pitching. With two bases open, you pitch around him. Even when you got up one strike on him, you still dont give him anything CLOSE to hittable. Garners bad for not walking him, or expressing enough that Clemens should NOT pitch him anything close. Either Albert was going to take a walk or hit an impossible pitch that was a ball to score that runner. Hell, Id even considered pitching around Rolen to load the bases. But you absolutely do NOT pitch to Albert in that situation. The Yankee's paid each time they pitched to Ortiz in the same way.



Need I mention why Game 7 starter was Clemens to begin with? Why oh why was Roger not on the mound in game 6 and Oswalt in 7? Especially with Lidge able to cruise through at very least 2-3 innings of relief work. Even if all each gave you was 5 or so innings, Wheeler and Lidge were proving to be about as unhittable to Cardinal batters as possible. I FIRMLY beilieve that Garner was looking foward to the world series. That he started Munro in 6 so Clemens would win 7, setting up Oswalt in game 1 in the world series.



When we got up 2-1 and Clemens started to stuggle, he needed to be taken out of the game. It should of been a few innings of Wheeler, maybe an inning out of Oswalt, then Lidge time.


And finally, Ensberg needed to take a seat in game 7. It was obvious that offense was struggling for the most of the last two games, and at very least Lamb was showing he was still able to hit the ball, unlike Morgan.


I feel Garners inability to play small ball with Kent on first to lead off an inning twice was a case of Garner costing the team. Same with pitching to Albert. The rest of my gripes are subjective, but I dont feel as if Garner gave the Stros their best opportunity to win. Which is exactly the only thing a manger SHOULDNT do.

[Master Baiter]

Dude, without Garner, all that bull**** you spewed would have been a non issue. He got us there. He was learning from his mistakes. He had never been in the playoffs because the teams he was on before sucked. He got some talent and look what happened. Was he perfect? Far from it. Did we kick a lot of ass? Hell ya. I'm sure someone could come watch me do my job and nitpick every single thing I do. Bottom line is he took a sinking ship and made the very best of it.

[Dreamshake]

Its not bull****....its basic baseball fundementals, for the most part. And if Garner needed to learn those on the fly, then he should not be managing in the first place. You act as if Garner didnt have a lifetime of baseball as a player, and what over 1000 games managed already?


You cry nitpick....I cry basic baseball fundamentals in bunting Kent BOTH innings with a .100 hitter due up.

[codell]

You could go either way with all your instances:

Ensberg could bunt Kent over, sure. Then you are depending on Ausmus, Vizcaino and Clemens driving him in. And with Clemens due up, Viz and Brad wouldn't have seen anything good to hit. I'd rather hope that Ensberg can hit a gapper or HR to get Kent home from 1st.

Rolen hit a HR after Albert's hit. I don't know how pitching around him would have been effective. Plus, Rolen hit Clemens better this year than Albert did.

Albert 1-7 against Clemens - 0 HRs
Rolen 3-9 against Clemens - 2 HRs

Clemens got beat on 4 days rest. Do you really think hed have been lights out on 3 days rest, which is what we would have needed to pull out Game 6?

You don't take an HOFer, who was arguably the best NL pitcher this year, out of the game in the 6th inning, with the lead when he has thrown less than 90 pitches.

Can't argue about Ensberg, but I don't think it was a no brainer to have him in there, at least for his defense to protect a low scoring game. Lamb is a disaster in the field and can't even make a throw to 3rd without bouncing a throw.

[Master Baiter]

People bitch that we dont play small ball and then when we do people bitch that we arent letting are boys hit. You cant have it both ways. I like the small ball approach. I think manufacturing runs is great FUNDEMENTAL baseball. You have to have some confidence in your players. We cant assume that our 7-8 guys are an automatic out. If Viz or whoever had gotten a hit and we scored and won, you would say what a great move it was. It didnt work out but at least we arent going up there living and dying by the long ball.

edit: I read your initial post incorrectly. I like small ball and bunting. I still think you are nitpicking every move he made. I bet we could do the same to LaRussa and show what idiot moves he made. Go back to that St. Louis board and they can give you every instance. Garner did a hell of a job. Better than I, and many many others, ever thought he would do. Enjoy our first Playoff Series win. Enjoy the enthusiasm. Enjoy a team that people really believed would go to the World Series. He has earned that manager title.

[spence99]

If you bunt Kent over, you only had Vizcaino or Ausmus to try to hit him in. You still need a hit - and we only got three last night. Our lack of bunting did not hurt us.

You sure know how to 2nd guess after you know what happened. We should have taken Clemens out when he was tired? When was that? How was Garner supposed to know Pujols and Rolen would hit him? You say Wheeler would have shut them down, but so had Clemens so far. How do you know Wheeler's success would continue? We only got 3 hits - you're not going to win with that no matter how you manage.

I say we hire Dreamshake as our manager next year! He obviously knows all the right moves to make.

[RocketMan Tex]

I agree somewhat with Dreamshake. Phil Garner is a great motivator, but he is not a great field general. He proved it many times while managing Milwaukee and Detroit. It is inevitable that Drayton will hire him on to be the permanent manager. I wish they could send him to Joe Torre's School of On-Field Baseball Movemaking during the offseason.

[Dreamshake]

Well if we are going to talk stats of players vs pitching. Yes bunting Kent over would of been the right move. Considering that Viz had the highest lifetime average against Suppan of any player in baseball....damn near .600. And what did Viz do in his first at bat against Suppan....base knock. And at that point bunting Kent to second means we have two outs to play with and a runner on second. So many things could occur at that point. A base hit could of scored a runner. You cant take runs for granted in the playoffs. All you had to do was look at LaRussa suicide squeezing runs in with his potent lineup to see that.


You cant say for sure that Rolen hits that homer if we walk Albert. The whole dynamic of the game at that point would of changed. And Id still either make Rolen beat us, or possibly walk him to load the bases.

[Dreamshake]

Originally posted by spence99 If you bunt Kent over, you only had Vizcaino or Ausmus to try to hit him in. You still need a hit - and we only got three last night. Our lack of bunting did not hurt us. You sure know how to 2nd guess after you know what happened. We should have taken Clemens out when he was tired? When was that? How was Garner supposed to know Pujols and Rolen would hit him? You say Wheeler would have shut them down, but so had Clemens so far. How do you know Wheeler's success would continue? We only got 3 hits - you're not going to win with that no matter how you manage. I say we hire Dreamshake as our manager next year! He obviously knows all the right moves to make.

Well Obviously we can play devils advocate and claim the same towards you. How could you argue agains Wheeler? Had he shown us otherwise? OH right, maybe we should of went with Micelli again I mean he did something to prove his worth. It was pretty obvious to me that Clemens didnt have his good stuff early. I thought it was pretty obvious to everyone. He wasnt getting strikeouts, he relied completly on his fastball, and wouldn't go with anyother pitch, promting many mound meetings with Ausmus.


Its obvious also to me that If I was hired as manager, Id at least have a couple of clues more than you would of as manager.

[DaDakota]

Hindsight is a beautiful thing.

But the fact that our catcher can not hit a simple fly ball with runners on the corner with one out speaks volumes.

The hitters let the team down, not the pitching or Garner.

Clemens pitched well enough to win, but 3 hits will hardly ever get it done.

DD

[Baqui99]

Originally posted by DaDakota Hindsight is a beautiful thing. But the fact that our catcher can not hit a simple fly ball with runners on the corner with one out speaks volumes. The hitters let the team down, not the pitching or Garner. Clemens pitched well enough to win, but 3 hits will hardly ever get it done. DD

Indeed. Garner can't go up there and swing for our guys, unfortunately. We are not a fundamentally sound baseball team. During the entire series, we struggled at moving runners over, sac. bunts, and manufacturing runs in general. We are a team full of free swingers who can't situationally hit.

[Master Baiter]

The play where the Cards squeeze bunted was the difference in our team and their team. They could execute those kind of plays where we could not. That was one of the best plays I have seen in quite a while.

[dskillz]

It's easy to 2nd guess now. But from watching as much baseball as I have, there is not much that is 100% successful. Your gripes carry with them the fact that things would have been carried through successfully. What if we tried to bunt, the ball popped up, the catcher caught and then we got doubled up? Then people would complain that we should have been swinging the bats.

The day after any game it is easy to say, "Garner should have done this or that." But at the same time, without Garner managing in this same way all season, we wouldn't have made the playoffs at all. So I am willing to cut Garner some slack and hope that we have more consistent bats next season .

It is just weird that in your post you talk about "Baseball 101", then come up with this gem:

Need I mention why Game 7 starter was Clemens to begin with? Why oh why was Roger not on the mound in game 6 and Oswalt in 7?

Did you see how Clemens and Oswalt pitched on short rest? So you wanted both of them to pitch on short rest in the same game leaving us with who for game 7?

I understand your disappointment, but there is not always a person to blame for a loss. Sometimes things just don't go your way and the other team wins. That is one thing I really don't like about the sports climate right now. There always has to be a scapegoat, no team cannot simply lose a game these days. I can accept we got beat with out looking to blame anyone, as badly as I wanted the Astros to win, I do not have to blame any one person for us not doing so.

[Dreamshake]

Originally posted by dskillz It's easy to 2nd guess now. But from watching as much baseball as I have, there is not much that is 100% successful. Your gripes carry with them the fact that things would have been carried through successfully. What if we tried to bunt, the ball popped up, the catcher caught and then we got doubled up? Then people would complain that we should have been swinging the bats. The day after any game it is easy to say, "Garner should have done this or that." But at the same time, without Garner managing in this same way all season, we wouldn't have made the playoffs at all. So I am willing to cut Garner some slack and hope that we have more consistent bats next season . It is just weird that in your post you talk about "Baseball 101", then come up with this gem: Did you see how Clemens and Oswalt pitched on short rest? So you wanted both of them to pitch on short rest in the same game leaving us with who for game 7? I understand your disappointment, but there is not always a person to blame for a loss. Sometimes things just don't go your way and the other team wins. That is one thing I really don't like about the sports climate right now. There always has to be a scapegoat, no team cannot simply lose a game these days. I can accept we got beat with out looking to blame anyone, as badly as I wanted the Astros to win, I do not have to blame any one person for us not doing so.

IF they would of bunted with .100 hitter in that situation and popped up then the blame is with the player. Then we have a guy who's batting .600 against Suppan due up next. Quit trying to blame the players for Garners mistakes. Yes we only got 3 hits, but we had a 2-1 lead into the 6th. Its the managers job to manufacture runs, not unmanufature them.

I wanted Clemens in game 6 and Oswalt in 7. Clemens pitched well enough on 3 days rest. Oswalt wasnt quite so hot, but was better then having someone last 2 innings and eating up Lidges innings that night and having Oswalt warming up in the pen using up his arm.

[Puedlfor]

A few things :

1) We were hitting the ball pretty hard against Suppan, and it wasn't out of the picture that by letting our players just hit - we'd put a crooked number on the board. Bunting, and the like takes outs off the board for us, and lessens that chance.

2) The Cardinals manufactured one run. We manufactured one run. The difference in the game was a two-run homer.

[dskillz]

Originally posted by Dreamshake IF they would of bunted with .100 hitter in that situation and popped up then the blame is with the player. Then we have a guy who's batting .600 against Suppan due up next. Quit trying to blame the players for Garners mistakes. Yes we only got 3 hits, but we had a 2-1 lead into the 6th. Its the managers job to manufacture runs, not unmanufature them. I wanted Clemens in game 6 and Oswalt in 7. Clemens pitched well enough on 3 days rest. Oswalt wasnt quite so hot, but was better then having someone last 2 innings and eating up Lidges innings that night and having Oswalt warming up in the pen using up his arm.

Did you read anything I wrote? I am not blaming anyone, we lost. Why does it have to be Garner's fault? Why does your scenario have to be 100% correct? So if Garner had done your strategy and we still lost who would you blame then? Your strategy is not 100% guranteed to work, just like Garner's wasn't 100% guranteed to fail. Now if Morgan had hit a homer, like he already had in the postseason, what would you be saying now?

But if you want to blame Garner for that loss, you go right ahead. I still don't understand why it has to be someone's fault. But if it makes you sleep better blaming someone, go ahead. I just don't agree that Garner cost us anything and I am not convinced your strategy is 100% successful and a no-brainer.

[MadMax]

we just got beat. they made some great plays in the field...particuarly from edmonds and renteria...that robbed us of big hits in timely situations. we got beat. it sucks. but it is what it is.

[Luckyazn]

Dreamshake you're LAME man quit whining dude ... YEAH IS EASY TO COMPLAIN NOW.

If we pitched Clemens in game 6 and lost it would be "WHY DID WE USE CLEMENS ON SHORT DAY REST AGIAN!!"

If we walked PUJOL and ROLEN hits a homer it would be "WHY DID WE WALK PUJOL!!

If we would have lost game 5 it would be "WHY DID WE PUT LIDGE IN !!! BACKE WAS DOING GOOD!"

Are you like 35 still living at home and complaining why your parents still LIVES WITH YOU?

[JunkyardDwg]

Originally posted by Dreamshake IF they would of bunted with .100 hitter in that situation and popped up then the blame is with the player. Then we have a guy who's batting .600 against Suppan due up next. Quit trying to blame the players for Garners mistakes. Yes we only got 3 hits, but we had a 2-1 lead into the 6th. Its the managers job to manufacture runs, not unmanufature them. I wanted Clemens in game 6 and Oswalt in 7. Clemens pitched well enough on 3 days rest. Oswalt wasnt quite so hot, but was better then having someone last 2 innings and eating up Lidges innings that night and having Oswalt warming up in the pen using up his arm.

What's with all the hating on Garner. Like pretty much everyone else has said...and to which I agree...it's not 100% that your strategy would have even worked. Yes Esnberg could have bunted Kent over, maybe even successfully, but what guarantee was there that Viz would have done anything. Yes he's a .600 hitter agaisnt Suppan and yes he did have a hit off him in the 1st...but he never had a hit off him after that.

As for Clemens starting game 6...he gave up 4 runs on full rest...I doubt he would have done better on short rest...so the Astros most likely still would have lost...and we would have had to go to a tired Oswalt on short rest. And honestly, I was starting to get the feeling that Oswalt was done, that he had next to nothing left in his tank (this is after all was his first trip to the postseason after a full (relatively) injury free year under his belt. His arm had to have been tired. And his short relief appearance last night proved that.

As for walking Pujols or not. Clemens had better numbers against Pujols than Rolen. AND, the count was in his favor. Clemens, not Garner, mistakenly threw a high inside fastball to him. Then... Clemens, not Garner, threw the same exact pitch to Rolen. (and btw, pitching around Pujols is a judgement call with Clemens on the mound...pitching around and walking Rolen after walking Pujols to load the bases with one out is just totally moronic.)

Hindsight is such a wonderful thing... but in the end...we lost...to a better team (as much as it pains me). No one is to blame. Yet, everyone is to be thanked (except say Miceli) for a wonderful ride.

[PhiSlammaJamma]

Every game was decided by three runs or less. Garner gave us a chance to win. We just didn't take it.