Good Friday is a week from today, so allow me some latitude. I've edited an answer I gave before. It's basically a defense of Christianity that addresses the significance of Christ's death. "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God." - 2 Corinthians 5:21 I can't prove Christianity is the truth, but I can give reasons to believe that it is, or that it might be. God is the one who enables a person to have faith, but that person can use his/her intellect to evaluate the case for Christianity. Even before examining Christianity specifically, there are compelling reasons to believe that God exists. For example, the specified complexity of the DNA molecule points to an intelligent source. I think an intelligent being is responsible for the information encoded in DNA because that's the best possible explanation. Many Christians have written books in defense of Christianity. I'll just give a few reasons why I think a person should be willing to believe in Jesus Christ. You have to have a humble heart and an open mind. You can't conclude that a loving God can't possibly exist because there's suffering in the world. You can't conclude that the God of the Bible can't possibly be a just God because he sometimes kills people in the Bible. Allow for the possibility that God exists, and allow for the possibility that God's understanding is greater than yours. God is a forgiving God, but there are times in the Bible when God strikes people dead. Was God being unjust? No. In creation, the penalty for sin is death. God wasn't being unjust when he destroyed people. That was justice. God was being merciful when he let anyone else continue to live. Similarly, it would be justice if we all went to hell, because we're all sinners. God allowing us to receive eternal life, through Christ, is a demonstration of his mercy and grace. The fact that God allows injustice in this world does not make him unjust; that he allows suffering does not make him unloving or uncompassionate. We have a limited perspective, and we can't understand everything God does. I trust in God, though, because "his understanding no one can fathom" (Isaiah 40:28). Consider the Bible. It was written by about 40 authors over a period of about 1,500 years, yet its message is profoundly unified and coherent. God created human beings in his image. All human beings are guilty of sin and deserve eternal punishment. God loved us so much he entered the world in the flesh and died as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. He rose from the dead and ascended into heaven. Whoever believes in Jesus Christ shall have eternal life. The Old Testament was an incomplete message from God. In the Old Testament, God declares that he will send a Messiah and that he will establish a new covenant. In the New Testament, Jesus Christ (God) emerges as the Messiah. Christ is the mediator of the new covenant. The New Testament completed God's message. Let's allow for a moment that this world could have been possible independent of God, and that there is no God. But picture the world without human beings, too, because that's what I think the world would resemble if there there were no God. There would be natural enemies, but there would be no hatred. There would be pain, but there would be no torture. There would be killing, but there would be no murder. There would be conflict, but there would be no good and evil. But that's not the world we know. There is good and evil. There is good because God exists, and there is evil because there is rebellion against God. We live in a world where human beings stand apart from all other animals. Human beings are created in the image of God, imbued with a moral conscience. Human beings are born with a sinful nature. In the Old Testament, God required the Israelites to give offerings to him. Sin offerings and guilt offerings were sacrifices of expiation and propitiation. There was a special day, once a year, called the Day of Atonement. On that day, the high priest would sacrifice a bull as a sin offering for himself and the other priests, and he would sacrifice a goat as a sin offering for the people. In addition, he would place his hands on a second goat, symbolically transferring Israel's sin, and then he would send the goat into the desert as a scapegoat, symbolizing the removal of sin and its guilt. The tabernacle was divided into two rooms—the Holy Place and the Most Holy Place. The Most Holy Place contained the ark of the covenant. Only the high priest could enter the Most Holy Place, and he only did so on the Day of Atonement. God is a holy God. Sin separates us from God, and reconciliation requires the removal of our sins. The Day of Atonement showed that atonement was necessary for our sins to be removed. But animal sacrifices can't remove human sins. The true atoning sacrifice was Jesus Christ, who died as the perfect sacrifice for sin. Our sins were imputed to Christ, and his righteousness is imputed to us. "God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood" (Romans 3:25). Christ's death on the cross was a sacrifice of expiation, because it removed our sins. It was also a sacrifice of propitiation, because it quenched God's wrath against us, saving us from eternal punishment. "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him" (John 3:36). If you don't think the Bible is the word of God, and if you think the New Testament writers invented the concept of Christ as an atoning sacrifice, then how do you account for Isaiah 53, which was written by the prophet Isaiah about 700 years before Christ was even born? Isaiah 53 not only makes accurate predictions about Christ, it explains the theological significance of Christ's death. "But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed" (Isaiah 53:5). "We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all" (Isaiah 53:6). "After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light of life and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities" (Isaiah 53:11). Isaiah 53:10 states that "it was the Lord's will to crush him and cause him to suffer," and that "the Lord makes his life a guilt offering." Verse 11 states that the suffering servant "will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities." Verse 12 states that "he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors." The New Testament, in Hebrews 10, places the sacrifices prescribed by the law in the Old Testament in perspective: The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: "Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me; with burnt offerings and sin offerings you were not pleased. Then I said, 'Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll— I have come to do your will, O God.' " First he said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them" (although the law required them to be made). Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second. And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. - Hebrews 10:1-10 The sanctuary of the tabernacle was just an earthly, imperfect, and temporary copy of the true sanctuary in heaven, and so was the sanctuary of the temple at the time of Christ. At the moment Christ died, "the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom" (Matthew 27:51). That was the inner curtain separating the Holy Place from the Most Holy Place. The tearing of that curtain signified that Christ had made it possible for us to enter directly into God's presence. "For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant." - Hebrews 9:15 "It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God's presence. Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him." - Hebrews 9:23-28 Is it just a coincidence that the New Testament complements the Old Testament so perfectly? Is it just a coincidence that Isaiah 53 is so accurate?
I think the life of Paul is further evidence that Christianity is the truth. Paul was born at about the same time Christ was born. He was a Jew and a Roman citizen. He was well-educated. He was able to speak Aramaic and Greek, and he had a working knowledge of Latin. As an adolescent, he was sent to Jerusalem to study Judaism under a Pharisee named Gamaliel, the most famous Jewish teacher of his time. Paul became a well-known Pharisee who did everything he could to oppose Christianity. He persecuted Christians. He was present when Stephen, the first Christian martyr, was stoned to death by the Sanhedrin. Paul gave his approval to Stephen's death. In Acts 26, Paul (speaking to King Agrippa) describes his own conversion: "I too was convinced that I ought to do all that was possible to oppose the name of Jesus of Nazareth. And that is just what I did in Jerusalem. On the authority of the chief priests I put many of the saints in prison, and when they were put to death, I cast my vote against them. Many a time I went from one synagogue to another to have them punished, and I tried to force them to blaspheme. In my obsession against them, I even went to foreign cities to persecute them. "On one of these journeys I was going to Damascus with the authority and commission of the chief priests. About noon, O king, as I was on the road, I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, blazing around me and my companions. We all fell to the ground, and I heard a voice saying to me in Aramaic, 'Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.' "Then I asked, 'Who are you, Lord?' " 'I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,' the Lord replied. 'Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen of me and what I will show you. I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.' "So then, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the vision from heaven. First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds. That is why the Jews seized me in the temple courts and tried to kill me. But I have had God's help to this very day, and so I stand here and testify to small and great alike. I am saying nothing beyond what the prophets and Moses said would happen—that the Christ would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would proclaim light to his own people and to the Gentiles." - Acts 26:9-23 Paul suffered tremendously for his faith, but he wrote, "I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us" (Romans 8:18). Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one. Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was stoned, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea, I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my own countrymen, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false brothers. I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked. Besides everything else, I face daily the pressure of my concern for all the churches. - 2 Corinthians 11:24-28 Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us. - Romans 5:3 That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong. - 2 Corinthians 12:10 However, I consider my life worth nothing to me, if only I may finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me—the task of testifying to the gospel of God's grace. - Acts 20:24 I think Paul's transformation is compelling evidence that Christianity is the truth. We know of three missionary journeys he completed before he was taken to Rome in A.D. 59-60. It's possible he made another missionary journey after his imprisonment in Rome (A.D. 60-62). He preached to Jews, Greeks, and Romans, and he wrote 13 of the 27 books in the New Testament. He endured extreme suffering because of his commitment to Christ, yet he rejoiced in his sufferings because he loved Christ. God used him in a powerful way. There are over 5,600 known Greek manuscript copies of the New Testament, with about 99.5% textual accuracy. Regarding the Gospels, there just wasn't enough time for a legend to develop about Christ's resurrection. And if Christ did not really rise from the dead, why didn't Christianity just die out? The Gospel writers wrote about Christ's resurrection as a fact, and true Christians accepted it as a fact. Paul wrote, "And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. More than that, we are then found to have been false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead" (1 Corinthians 15:14). If you are seeking God, I encourage you to be persistent. God said, "You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart" (Jeremiah 29:13). If you are interested in Christianity, you should know the definition of the Trinity, even if we can't fully comprehend the Trinity. Christianity is a monotheistic faith. The Father is God. The Son is God. The Holy Spirit is God. James R. White defines the Trinity in his book, The Forgotten Trinity: "Within the one Being that is God, there exists eternally three coequal and coeternal persons, namely the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit." I'll close with the opening verses of the Gospel of John. ("The Word" refers to Jesus.) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it. There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world. He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. - John 1:1-13
Just to clarify things for others who may not be aware: Paul never met Jesus. He claims he spoke to Jesus in a "vision". Yet he is probably the most influential person in the NT and throughout the history of the Christian religion. Christians pay more attention to his writings than they do those of Mark, Matthew, Luke & John. People who actually KNEW Jesus and learned from him first hand. personally, I think Paul was a douchebag for his homophobia and mysoginism. Plus if I have to go to another wedding where they read Corinthians 13 I'm gonna throw up.
Interesting. Outlaw, Do you believe Jesus existed and actually "said" all the things in the Bible? KateBeckinsale, I have a question I was debating about with someone the other day (a Christian). Are there any quotes in the Holy Bible where Jesus identifies himself as God or as God in the form of a "human"? Anything in this context. Your posts seem to be the continuation of another argument, and I didn't find what I was looking for in your first post. I apologize if this question is offensive in any way.
Hmm, good question - I always felt that it was implied throughout the New Testament that Jesus was God as flesh and blood, but I did a google search and found this: 57 Then the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" 9. (verses 56-57) How could Abraham have seen Christ? Can you think of a scripture from the Old Testament that Jesus might have been referring to? Christ said Abraham rejoiced to see his day. Of course, it’s possible Abraham could see what was going on down on earth, but I think Jesus is referring to another event. It wasn’t the Mount of Transfiguration, because only Moses and Elijah were allowed to participate in that. So how could Abraham have seen Christ’s day? In Genesis 18, three men came to visit Abraham. Later two of the men went on to Sodom to destroy the city and we know from Genesis 19 that these two men were angels. But the third man in Genesis 18 is called Yahweh by Abraham so he could not have been an angel. Many scholars think this appearance was a pre-incarnate appearance of Christ. Perhaps this was the event that Jesus was referring to. 58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM." 10. (verse 58) Why did Jesus use these words? What scripture is he quoting? What is he saying by quoting this scripture? Jesus purposely used these words. In Exodus 3:14 God tells Moses, "And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you." When Christ repeated these words, he was clearly identifying himself as the great I AM – Yahweh. Exodus 3:14 in the Greek Septuagint reads evgw. eivmi, ego eimi which is the identical wording as here in John 8:58. Christ is claiming that he is equal to the Father. 59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. 11. (verse 59) Why did the Jews pick up stones? The Jews understood that Jesus was claiming to be God. They took up stones to throw at him for this blasphemy. They didn’t like Christ claiming heavenly authority. There are many people today who are still throwing stones at Jesus. They don’t want to listen to his words or obey his commands. They try to say he really wasn’t all that he claimed to be. But they are just as much mis-guided as the Jewish leaders were 2000 years ago. They should have remembered Isaiah’s promise of the coming Messiah written hundreds of year before this in Isaiah 9:6, "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." The son would be called "the mighty God" and "the everlasting Father." Because that’s what he was.
Sane: It's not offensive at all. At least you didn't call Christ a douchebag or something like that. Particularly when you understand little of the faith. No, that would be disrespectful...but just asking a genuine honest question in an unassuming way is not. Thanks for your question. I've had this discussion with Muslim friends many times...there seems to be some mistake among those in Islam that the Bible never has Jesus asserting himself as the Christ. Yes...there are numerous instances in the Gospels where Jesus identifies himself as you say. These are just 5 examples from the very first Gospel in the Bible, the Gospel of Matthew...if you want, I can provide some others from the other Gospels as well.... 1. John the Baptist is in prison...and he sends word to Jesus to ask if he really is the Christ. Jesus responds by saying, "tell John that the deaf hear...the blind see...the dead are raised...and the good news is preached to the poor." This is Jesus citing to Old Testament prophecy to show who he is. (Matthew 11:2-6) 2. He calls himself the Son of Man over and over and over again in all the Gospels. Again...pointing back to the Old Testament Book of Daniel to assert he's the Messiah. 3. "But what about you? Jesus asked. "Who do you say that I am?" Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man,but by my Father in heaven." (Matthew 16:15-17) 4. The high priest said to him, "I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God." Jesus replied, "Yes, it is as you say. But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven." (Matthew 26: 63-64 5. Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore, go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." (Matthew 28:18-20)
Thanks for the answers MadMax and Manny Ramirez. But I didn't in any of your posts a quote where Jesus refers to himself as God or The Creator. What is the super-exact definition of The Christ and The Messiah? One more question that Manny's post raised... What's Moses' role in Christianity? Is he a prophet sent from God, just some guy who made up a religion or....? I understand the history of Jews and Christians, read a lot about it actually... But it was never clear to me what Moses role was when assuming that Jesus, who came after Moses, is the Creator.
I could go find you more if you'd like...maybe if I have more time today, I'll do that. But read #5 above...given all authority in heaven and earth...equating himself with the Father....these were the reasons he was put to death, Sane...because he equated himself with the Father. Moses' role is that of one who knew God before Christ. Christians believe that Jesus is the human incarnation of God...it's the whole trinity thing, which is really difficult to articulate, frankly. Moses worshipped God...thus, he worshipped Christ. Matthew 17 1After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus. 4Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters--one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah." 5While he was still speaking, a bright cloud enveloped them, and a voice from the cloud said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!" 6When the disciples heard this, they fell facedown to the ground, terrified. 7But Jesus came and touched them. "Get up," he said. "Don't be afraid." 8When they looked up, they saw no one except Jesus. 9As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus instructed them, "Don't tell anyone what you have seen, until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead." 10The disciples asked him, "Why then do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?" 11Jesus replied, "To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. 12But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands." 13Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist. John 5 45"But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. 46If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?"
Your quotes are all a bit vague MadMax, although I understand what you're pointing at. I would love to read more quotes, but if they are no more proof than the previous quotes, you may want to save your own time. I read in your quotes that he's The Son. Moses spoke of a next person/being - he didn't speak of God in the form of a human coming next. It's these vague things that intruige me. It also reminds me of how interpretation-driven religion is. His face shone like the sun and his clothes became as white as the light. Clearly, these are thigns that only God can do, but it still doesn't say that Jesus is God. Also, I understand why he was put to death, although as a Muslim I don't believe Jesus was put to death, but did he ever claim to be God or did the Jews assume this for themselves, get that impression from some unreasonable followers, or maybe they just saw all the miracles that Jesus was performing and felt somehow threatened. The answer differs in Christianity, Juddaism and Islam... However, it's clear that the reason he was put to death was not because he proclaimed to be God Almighty. He proclaimed to have seen things, done things, known things that no regualr human being could, but I have yet to see that quote or proof that seperates the "I've done these things" from the "I am God". Again, MadMax, we've had religious discussions before, and my aim is never to offend. I'm honestly just looking for gaps to fill, to find answers to some questions that are not clear. So again, and I hope you understand this for any time that we discuss these things, if I say anything offensive, it's not out of ill-well, but just bad wording or something.
Sane, I think something that is hard for people who are not Christians to understand about this issue is when scripture is quoted of God saying about Jesus, "This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased. Listen to him." (this shows up on the Transfiguration which Max quoted and also when Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist). People sit there and think how can Jesus be the same entity as God if God is looking down on Him?? But, I don't think you can use that type of reasoning when you are dealing with such a complex issue as the Trinity. It might be better to look at it like this: Christians believe that God was grieved with how the world was back then, but instead of sending another flood to wipe out the population like He did during the time of Noah, He did something different. He sent, essentially, His essence in human form to the earth and placed this essence in the Virgin Mary. How could God do this? Because He is the Creator! That is why you hear some Christians call Christ, God in flesh and blood or God in human form. It is almost like God created a clone of Himself and sent it to earth in the form of Jesus, but He made this clone live like a regular human being. Don't worry about offending anyone - these are good questions to ask and are ones that are not easy to answer or understand.
absolutely...it's fine. i know that of you and i appreciate it. if i ever do the same, i hope you'll understand that my comments or questions are not of ill-will either. i'll get back to you with more scripture
John 6:50 -- "I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of the bread he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world." John 8:12 -- "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life." (honestly, Sane...this is absolutely blasphemy to someone who doesn't ascribe deity to Jesus Christ) John 8:19 - "You do not know me or my Father. If you knew me you would know my Father also." John 8:23 -- "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be." and I know this one was quoted before..but here it is again.... John 8:58 -- "I tell you the truth, before Abraham was born, I am!" At this they picked up stones to stone him...
did he (Jesus) ever claim to be God or did the Jews assume this The idea that a man is "god" is offensive to Jewish theology. The idea is more in character with Greek theology/philosophy. Now a Jew sent packing after the Roman sack of Jerusalem who landed in a more Hellenized city may have questioned his/her own Jewish religious roots (like why had God let this happen to his chosen people?) and at the same time he/she may exposed to the new ideas of the Greek culture, religion, and philosophy.
but that was when....70 a.d.??? by that time, most of the texts that make up the Bible had been written.
Manny, The way I see it, God might have just created an amazing being, Jesus, rather than cloned himself. Basically, maybe God allowed the Virgin Mary a Virgin child, and I'm not debating that, but that still doesn't imply that the child that mary gave birth to is God in another form. he way you say God first wiped out the earth, then sent Jesus... That issue kind of troubles me... Did God fail the first time? God doesn't fail, regardless of the religion. God has all the answers, he doesn't need to go throught trial and error, I think that much is set in stone. Again, the thing I'm looking to clear up is... Where does it clearly say "Jesus is God in human form" rather than "Jesus is sent by God and has amazing abilities"? In a discussion with a very religious Muslim friend of mine, he said "Well, if Jesus is God, then how come he died?" It really struck me. How could God, in any form at all, die? We're talking about God here. The greatest being, creator of the universe, heaven, hell, humans, and life... Confusing stuff. But you clarified the "My Son" part for me, something I never fully understood till now. Does anyone know the exact words for "My Son" that are used in the original language of the Bible?(Aramaik if I'm not mistaken)
because he was fully God and fully human....he subjected himself entirely to human frailties. God never died...his spirit never died. the flesh thirsted...hungered...desired....and ultimately died. but the spirit never did. Jesus talked about laying down his life for others as a testament to what true love is. God can do anything...if He wishes to prove His love through a perfect sacrifice, or you going to tell Him that He can't?? i think clearly his words speak to the fact that he was more than just a neat moral teacher. he was a blasphemer who claimed equality with God...or he was exactly who he said he was.
MadMax, Great quotes. I feel I'm saying this too much and it may become annoying to you guys in a way, but I'll say it one last time just to clarify: Those quotes all say that Jesus is sent from God, but none claim that he's God. Oh, and don't worry about offending me. I enjoy these conversations and understand what everyone means in its context. From your posts, I can tell that you don't intend any ill-will anyway.
if anyone is interested at all....and that includes you, Sane....my church is hosting an event called, "The Case for Easter" this Sunday night at 6. It's put on by a guy named Lee Strobel who was an atheist but had a change of heart and was moved by the evidence of Christ's claims. It's via satellite, so we'll be watching it on TV together....you might find it interesting. and, seriously, everyone is welcome. you can run out of the church afterwards if you like so you don't have to talk to anyone like me either!! i think you'll find my church full of nice people who wouldn't cram anything down your throat. not exactly our style. St. Thomas Presbyterian Church 14100 MEMORIAL DRIVE HOUSTON, TX 77079
