Stalemate JVG/Francis/Yao

[A-Train]

I'm sure the usual suspects will jump all over this and turn it into a Steve bashing thread, but I'm not worried. Shaq and Kobe have never liked each other, and all they got out of it was three titles.

Steve also has nothing to gain from missing shots on purpose, so I doubt the whole "tanking" theory doesn't hold water.

[ROCKET RICH NYC]

Originally posted by A-Train I'm sure the usual suspects will jump all over this and turn it into a Steve bashing thread, but I'm not worried. Shaq and Kobe have never liked each other, and all they got out of it was three titles. Steve also has nothing to gain from missing shots on purpose, so I doubt the whole "tanking" theory doesn't hold water.

Like I said, I didn't say Francis was tanking shots on purpose.

I just don't think its like him to miss like that and create silly turnovers. You know when you get into a fight with your wife/girlfriend and they try talking to you and you just go through the motions and just say "ok" or "whatever"? That's what I think Francis was doing yesterday. The two really got into a heated argument from what I was told and this isn't the first time nor the last.

[AroundTheWorld]

Originally posted by ROCKET RICH NYC Also, I heard Yao has been getting degraded and yelled at by JVG on a daily basis. I don't think Yao takes negative reinforcement too well. It's no secret that JVG is an old school "Yeller" but I think its starting to have negative effects on our Franchise players.

This is very bad. If that is indeed true, I am joining the "I hate van Gundy fan club". I completely agree that Yao Ming is NOT someone who would respond well to negative reinforcement of that kind.

FWIW, I think Rocket Rich NY does have insider information. Even then, when someone tells someone else something he has heard and that person tells it to other people, information might be a little distorted, even if not on purpose. No disrespect. I just hope that it is not as bad as it sounds.

[A-Train]

Originally posted by ROCKET RICH NYC Like I said, I didn't say Francis was tanking shots on purpose.

Trust me, it will come up...

[Toast]

Winning heals wounds. As long as the team wins, they can argue and be okay with it. As long as the team wins, Francis can go 1-11 and JVG can "tell it like it is" to the media about our need to improve.

If we lose 4 in a row, however, suddenly the arguing is a bit more serious.

By the way, if I were JVG I'd tell Yao a thing or two myself. Shoot, even in the closing minutes of last night's game vs. GS (i.e., trash time), Yao was fumbling rebounds. Come on, Yao. Get your hands on the damned ball and hold on to it! He was holding the ball under his waist where guards could easily strip it away from him. He simply wasn't playing smart and wasn't playing well.

I don't think the fouls are the reason he sits often during crunch time. Yao needs to play hard and with passion.

[GATER]

Originally posted by ROCKET RICH NYC ...The two really got into a heated argument from what I was told and this isn't the first time nor the last.

RR NYC -
Just out of curiousity....would this be a "normal" relationship? I mean would JVG ever have heated arguments based upon his expectations with say...LJ, or Spree, or Mark Jackson or Allan Houston?

I ask because I observed that prior to Van Gundy signing with the Rockets, much was made in the press about how much his ex-players loved playing for him. There is such a thing as tough love!

[Charvo]

When was the last time the franchise player didn't like the coach and the team won the championship? If anyone can remember, please post.

[Moe]

Originally posted by ROCKET RICH NYC I just don't think its like him to miss like that and create silly turnovers.

Yes, it's so out of character for Francis to commit silly/stupid turnovers.

[ROCKET RICH NYC]

Originally posted by GATER RR NYC - Just out of curiousity....would this be a "normal" relationship? I mean would JVG ever have heated arguments based upon his expectations with say...LJ, or Spree, or Mark Jackson or Allan Houston? I ask because I observed that prior to Van Gundy signing with the Rockets, much was made in the press about how much his ex-players loved playing for him. There is such a thing as tough love!

Those players loved him because they were all relatively the same age/generation. JVG also gew up with these players in the Knicks system under Riley as were those players.

This is the first time JVG in his career that there is an age/generation gap which he has to change to. So far he has not changed. He still acts like a Pat Riley clone and does non-sense things that the current Rocket players just roll their eyes at.

For instance, after the Laker game where he sent out Keith and Jay all over town to buy running shoes for the team. (Spent $1500 on shoes that none of them used). You would expect some kind of long motivational speech about the running shoes that were bought right? Wrong! All he said in the locker room... "You better F@!ing Run tonight! What was the end result? A loss! Some motivator.

JVG does not and will not get through to this group of players. He has to surround himself around verteran players to be effective. Believe me, there were definitely heated arguments with Spree and JVG but they still respected each other. Steve, Yao, and others, don't respect JVG. They are from a different generation and don't relate to each other.

[B-Bob]

Originally posted by ROCKET RICH NYC Steve, Yao, and others, don't respect JVG. They are from a different generation and don't relate to each other.

You know, I respect some of your info posts around here, but you simply cannot know exactly what's going on in Steve and Yao's heads, especially Yao's. In addition, lumping Yao (with his background and age) with Steve in the same generation sounds ludicrous to me.

You've long admitted what you think of JVG, which is fine, but it gives you significant bias here. I don't know why Steve would watch so much film with JVG if they hated each other, and if they're not doing this, why are they both telling lies about it?

Time will tell us what's up.

[annthuyn]

Originally posted by ROCKET RICH NYC JVG does not and will not get through to this group of players. He has to surround himself around verteran players to be effective. Believe me, there were definitely heated arguments with Spree and JVG but they still respected each other. Steve, Yao, and others, don't respect JVG. They are from a different generation and don't relate to each other.

That's so sad.. I hope things get better between JVG and Steve and the team. It seems like they are all playing better as a team and have potentials of going to the playoffs and more, but with this, it might just mess up the whole team..

[Cesar^Geronimo]

Maybe this gives little more validity to cwebbster and his inside info about hearing CD was contemplating a trade with Utah that involves Steve Francis and Kirelienko and Lopez.

I would love this trade --- I love Kirelienko's play --- passionate and effective.

[Charvo]

Van Gundy is under major pressure. He knows he is expected to take this team to the playoffs this year. Anything less is failure on his part since Rudy T was fired for the same reason. He is transferring this pressure onto his players.

[Charvo]

Originally posted by Cesar^Geronimo I would love this trade --- I love Kirelienko's play --- passionate and effective.

As much as Steve doesn't like Van Gundy, can you imagine him dealing with Jerry Sloan. Trade doesn't work from a personality conflict perspective.

[GATER]

Originally posted by ROCKET RICH NYC Those players loved him because they were all relatively the same age/generation. JVG also gew up with these players in the Knicks system under Riley as were those players. ...

Van Gundy is 43 years old. This is generational gap to a 26 year old Francis? How young a coach do we need here?

In some ways I can see you suggesting the majority of Rockets players only responding to a young, black coach who was an ex-player. Someone like Rudy T only younger and African-American...someone like...Doc Rivers. But wait, the Magic tuned him out, too.

Is the problem entirely Van Gundy's inability to change or partly attributable to a lack of mental maturity throughout the league? I respectfully submit that it's not only basketball fundamentals which are lacking in today's NBA players.

[sun12]

JVG does not and will not get through to this group of players. He has to surround himself around verteran players to be effective. Believe me, there were definitely heated arguments with Spree and JVG but they still respected each other. Steve, Yao, and others, don't respect JVG. They are from a different generation and don't relate to each other.

Well not sure about that, Yao and Steve might not agree with JVG on everything, but JVG is still the coach. Especially for Yao, JVG is still the coach, he will listen to the coach.

As for the softness of Yao, I think JVG/Ewing needs to tell Yao in which area he has to be more aggressive down to each detail action by action. Be aggressive is too general, most people won't know what to do exactly in one sequence of offense or defense.

For example, Ewing can tell Yao from the tape, on one particular action/movement, Yao can be aggressive with which movement instead of the one he used in the game. Then Ewing can show Yao by action. I think gradually in this way, Yao will become more aggressive because he can learn these aggressive techniques.

[giddyup]

Originally posted by A-Train Steve also has nothing to gain from missing shots on purpose, so I doubt the whole "tanking" theory doesn't hold water.

He acted genuinely happy when he finally made that eleventh shot...

[Nero]

Originally posted by GATER RR NYC - Just out of curiousity....would this be a "normal" relationship? I mean would JVG ever have heated arguments based upon his expectations with say...LJ, or Spree, or Mark Jackson or Allan Houston? I ask because I observed that prior to Van Gundy signing with the Rockets, much was made in the press about how much his ex-players loved playing for him. There is such a thing as tough love!

Excellent point!

Think of the Parcells comparison again. There are no more loyal former
players of a coach than those who played for Parcells (and came through
the experience intact anyway), and yet he can be the most critical and
verbally scathing coaches on the planet.

[London'sBurning]

I don't believe the team is turning on JVG because they've shown no sign of doing that this year. They've had games where they reverted back to old bad habits that damn near made me want to stop watching this team and just keep track of boxscores, but more often then not I can see a consorted team effort from everyone out there. I would definitely like to have Kirilenko on this team as well as Lopez though.

As far as JVG's treatment of Yao, I think if Yao can't handle the treatment of a small fry like JVG, then there's absolutely no hope for him to ever become a leader for this team, and he's definitely not the direction the Rockets should be looking at if that's the case. If it is the case, Yao will never be anything more then a star like Shawn Marion. Someone that can put up decents stats, but will never be able to carry a team on his back. And if that is the case, then I'd be extremely dissapointed to see all of Yao's potential be limited because of his own mental inability to handle harsh criticism. I don't believe that's the case though and that he will be a superstar and a goto guy for this team in crunch time. If anything I hope JVG's hard treatment will cause Yao to snap and start playing like a man. It doesn't mean he'll have start playing with a Shaq power game. It means he'll grab boards like he wants them more then anyone else on the court. It means he'll step out on pick and rolls and help set the defensive tempo. It means he'll demand the ball in the flow of his game and become less passive.

[ricerocket]

So far he has not changed. He still acts like a Pat Riley clone and does non-sense things that the current Rocket players just roll their eyes at.

That's not an act.... or he is just a horrible actor.

SF, you need to run more

Yao, hold the damn ball, quit fumbling it.

Cat, quit taking those stupid shots.

JJ, you're the greatest man, I love you.