The Houston Knickerbockers

[whiplashtony]

I think a lot of optimisim is fading from the Rocket's season.

So far we have lost Eddie Griffin ...
Yao Ming and Steve Francis are struggling ...
The Rockets are struggling to score 80 pts a game ...

Unfortunately I see a lot of the blame being put on the players directly on the message boards, and I dont think it's fair.

The problem is Jeff Van Gundy. He is trying to turn this team into the one he used to coach. Yao physcially can't "bang", and Steve Francis is never going to excel in a half court offense. Its the coaches job to understand your players talents and then build around them. Not force them into your ideas of how the game should be played. I have no doubt his intolerance for players who don't fit his system had something to do with the Rockets releasing Eddie Griffin as well. I wonder how Rudy T would have handled the Eddie situation, and if it would have resulted in him having a future with the Rockets. Eddie Griffin will come back to haunt the Rockets.

I'm physically disgusted at the sight of Patrick Ewing on the Rockets bench. Well if Yao is playing soft, he is obviously learning it from the best. The should have him in the high post where he started to flourish last year. Not down low. Rudy T knows how to handle a big man offensively so much better than Van Gundy.

Which is basicially where I'm going with this thread. We should have never bailed on Rudy T. It's an absolute smack in the face to the only coach in Houston history to bring a championship to the city, and to have been treated like he was. Rudy should have been given a life time contract. Bascially they gave his job away when he got sick. Dont you think Rudy T knows a thing or two about building an offense around a center? Jeff Van Gundy is the wrong guy for the job, I hope Les clues in on this before the Rockets start trading away pieces to the puzzle they can never get back.

[Severe Rockets Fan]

Originally posted by whiplashtony Rudy should have been given a life time contract.

Your post lost all credibility with this statement. Coaches don't stay with teams for as long as Rudy stayed with ours. He had a good run in Houston, but it wasn't going to last forever. The players stopped listening to him and were rountinely getting beat by bad teams. This is what happens when coaches lose their control of a team. Accept it and move on. Oh, and nice timing with your thread...why don't you try starting this after a big win.

[edc]

Originally posted by Severe Rockets Fan Oh, and nice timing with your thread...why don't you try starting this after a big win.

Big win? The Rockets may never have one of those under JVG

[ArtV]

Sad to say, IMO, Rudy's ISO time was past. The question is was JVG the right man. I'm on Munco's list as a no. I do/did think there were were still better men out there and sadly the things I feared would happen have happened. But as a Rocket fan, I'm still hoping one day, something magical happens and we become a good, fun to watch team. We have to ride this one out...

[hooroo]

too much blame on the wrong people. eddie griffin has really put the rox up the creek this season and the next.

[SmeggySmeg]

Originally posted by whiplashtony The problem is Jeff Van Gundy.

cause of course the Rockets were a finely tuned error free playoff successful team last year???

[Charvo]

Originally posted by hooroo too much blame on the wrong people. eddie griffin has really put the rox up the creek this season and the next.

Eddie Griffin was a 3 point jacking statue on offense. The problem with this team is not defense. It's offense. I'd take Maurice over Eddie on offense.

[whiplashtony]

Severe Rockets Fan

Obviously you don't understand hyperbole. But maybe you missed the point, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. The whole post shouldn't be taken literally, the point was Les bailed on Rudy.

1. Rudy T still wanted his job. He deserved it.
2. Yao Ming was coming into his own under Rudy. He's regressing under Van Gundy.
3. Rudy iso offense could be used as an example of why he is successful. The iso offense was implemented because the Rockets didn't have the inside threat anymore on offense. He tailored his offense to the skills of its players.


Smeggy

Last year. The Rockets collapsed without Rudy, when they were pushing for a playoff birth. Maybe you'll wise up when you see the Rockets near the eight seed again. And maybe you haven't looked at the standings, but the Rockets are currently the eight seed.


As far as Eddie is concerned. I'm not defending his play or offcourt behavior, but when you invest that heavily into a player you shouldn't cut your losses so early. You dont' see the Lakers bailing on Kobe. Anyways, half the league has a rap sheet now .. I'm sure Eddie will get past his current problems.

[haven]

Problem:

What if the talents on the team contradict each other?

Just a thought. I'll agree - to an extent.

Van Guny sells his soul to his strength. It's a common enough flaw in people - you learn what you're best at, come to rely on it... and then win with it. But there comes a point of overemphasis, at which one's strength becomes a liability.

JVG has reached it. Whether he can find a way to correct this will determine if he goes down as a great coach or merely a defensive guru.

[Rocket River]

Originally posted by whiplashtony I think a lot of optimisim is fading from the Rocket's season. So far we have lost Eddie Griffin ... Yao Ming and Steve Francis are struggling ... The Rockets are struggling to score 80 pts a game ... Unfortunately I see a lot of the blame being put on the players directly on the message boards, and I dont think it's fair. The problem is Jeff Van Gundy. He is trying to turn this team into the one he used to coach. Yao physcially can't "bang", and Steve Francis is never going to excel in a half court offense. Its the coaches job to understand your players talents and then build around them. Not force them into your ideas of how the game should be played. I have no doubt his intolerance for players who don't fit his system had something to do with the Rockets releasing Eddie Griffin as well. I wonder how Rudy T would have handled the Eddie situation, and if it would have resulted in him having a future with the Rockets. Eddie Griffin will come back to haunt the Rockets. I'm physically disgusted at the sight of Patrick Ewing on the Rockets bench. Well if Yao is playing soft, he is obviously learning it from the best. The should have him in the high post where he started to flourish last year. Not down low. Rudy T knows how to handle a big man offensively so much better than Van Gundy. Which is basicially where I'm going with this thread. We should have never bailed on Rudy T. It's an absolute smack in the face to the only coach in Houston history to bring a championship to the city, and to have been treated like he was. Rudy should have been given a life time contract. Bascially they gave his job away when he got sick. Dont you think Rudy T knows a thing or two about building an offense around a center? Jeff Van Gundy is the wrong guy for the job, I hope Les clues in on this before the Rockets start trading away pieces to the puzzle they can never get back.

so basically he lost his starting spot to injury
aaahhhhh the NEw NBA

I agree in part about JEff trying to fit Square pegs into he round hole

Rocket River

[Rocket River]

Originally posted by whiplashtony Severe Rockets Fan Obviously you don't understand hyperbole. But maybe you missed the point, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. The whole post shouldn't be taken literally, the point was Les bailed on Rudy. 1. Rudy T still wanted his job. He deserved it. 2. Yao Ming was coming into his own under Rudy. He's regressing under Van Gundy. 3. Rudy iso offense could be used as an example of why he is successful. The iso offense was implemented because the Rockets didn't have the inside threat anymore on offense. He tailored his offense to the skills of its players. Smeggy Last year. The Rockets collapsed without Rudy, when they were pushing for a playoff birth. Maybe you'll wise up when you see the Rockets near the eight seed again. And maybe you haven't looked at the standings, but the Rockets are currently the eight seed.

I love how people love to throw the NO PLAYOFFS IN FOUR YEARS
stuff in Rudy's Face
When he had a 47 win team miss the playoffs [most wins ever to not make the playoffs]
a Season with Francis missing over 20 games while MO was totally out
and
The last season he did not get to finish . . .even though
they were in the driver's seat for the 8th or even 7th spots

While you want to call the excuses
I call them some decent REASON

Rocket River

[ROCKET RICH NYC]

Hence the "I hate JVG" club continues to grow! :D

[rockHEAD]

Originally posted by whiplashtony Eddie Griffin will come back to haunt the Rockets.

even as a ghost, i doubt he would be threatening

[Rocket River]

Originally posted by ROCKET RICH NYC Hence the "I hate JVG" club continues to grow! :D

The JVG CAN DO NO WRONG club is getting over bearing
so this is the reaction

In all honesty
This BBS is becoming so REACTIONARY
You either PRO YAO or PRO FRANCIS
You either a RUDY FAN or a JVG FAN
You either PRO MOBLEY or ANTI MOBLEY

The all supposedly love one team
but d*mn we have so many divisive [sp?] Subgroups

Rocket River

[Sane]

Was just gonna start a thread on this, here are my thoughts:

I remember back when JVG was in New York, I always felt he could make one simple trade and balance out a lot of the team's problems. Eventually, he just kept playing the hardworkers, and let some talent rot on the bench. At some point, he'd just sign players to fill-in here and there, he refused to break up the Sprewell/Houston tandem, and just generally stubbornly refused to admit that his team needed a major change.

I think the Knicks are still suffering from that mess. Look at them, 7 or 8 F's, 3 PG's, 1 C, one SG...They're a mess, although improved.

I'm worried that JVG is too indifferent about his personnel judging by "we have enough talent to win" and "talent is almost equal in this league" quotes.

Is he going to turn us into the next horribly assembled team?

Before you begin telling me that CD is the GM, keep in mind that we know 100% that JVG is in on every single deal and has a say in all of them - I remember him saying it's one of the reasons he took this job.

I'm blown away by his great motivational skills right now, but I'm worried that CD won't take the initiative and we'll slowly and painfully turn into a team with no good PG, a worn out star player, and a whole bunch of mediocre F's.

[reptilexcq]

Originally posted by whiplashtony Severe Rockets Fan Obviously you don't understand hyperbole. But maybe you missed the point, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. The whole post shouldn't be taken literally, the point was Les bailed on Rudy. 1. Rudy T still wanted his job. He deserved it. 2. Yao Ming was coming into his own under Rudy. He's regressing under Van Gundy. 3. Rudy iso offense could be used as an example of why he is successful. The iso offense was implemented because the Rockets didn't have the inside threat anymore on offense. He tailored his offense to the skills of its players. Smeggy Last year. The Rockets collapsed without Rudy, when they were pushing for a playoff birth. Maybe you'll wise up when you see the Rockets near the eight seed again. And maybe you haven't looked at the standings, but the Rockets are currently the eight seed. As far as Eddie is concerned. I'm not defending his play or offcourt behavior, but when you invest that heavily into a player you shouldn't cut your losses so early. You dont' see the Lakers bailing on Kobe. Anyways, half the league has a rap sheet now .. I'm sure Eddie will get past his current problems.

I disagreed about Yao regressing under JVG. JVG makes him tougher and more determine in my opinion. It's just the Rox does not have enough good smarter players on the team.

And no Rudy will make the team more lazy and worst based on the way i see it last year. So..he will not make the team better.

[London'sBurning]

I'm not ready to blame JVG until he's had a season under him first. I have noticed some coaching decisions on his part that in hindsight were in error, but I also think he was left with a big mess that RudyT left him that he hasn't even begun to clean up yet. I think given a years time JVG will have had plenty of time to evaluate his players on who's going to fit in his system, who isn't, and will make this team a contender. As much as I'd like an overnight difference in this team this year in comparison to last the four lottery bound seasons, it's not realistic to expect such drastic change. He's got one year of leeway, and an offseason to make some changes if necessary (which will be necessary if we want to be legit contenders, much less playoff bound).

[rm365]

I don't see how you can say Yao is regressing. How many double doubles does he have already? If he didn't get into foul trouble last game, he would have did well again.
I think a big part of whats really hurting our offense is Cato starting at the 5 spot. Whats he shooting, .300? Perhaps we should give Mo his starting spot back.

[whiplashtony]

Well I'm glad to see some support for the thread. I know its early, but I dont think its irrational at all. I'm reserving the right to say "I told you so" if the Rockets miss the playoffs and the ghost of Eddie is putting up 17pt 8brds and 4blks per for the Grizzlies in two years ...

I read the boards, but I dont post often. So contratrary to the JVG lovers, my post wasnt' reactionary. The Suns loss and recent downturns in the season just valididated my feelings about the new Rockets braintrust.

I'm just curious. Does anyone have any knowledge if the organization approached Olajuwon about working with Yao? I'd much rather have Moses and Dream working with him than Ewing ...

[Pizza_Da_Hut]

Fire Van Gundy at once! I was open to the concept of Van Gundy coming to Houston when he originally came, and I opposed all those Van Gundy bashers and even more so the fans who still had a luster for Rudy T. I love Rudy as much as the last guy, but i felt like maybe, just maybe, the kink in our armor was him. So with open arms van gundy came, and now i want him gone. Being a pizza guy, in Phoenix, i don't get to watch many Rockets games (i've seen 2 so far) so when i found out i got tickets to see the Rox v Suns I freaked. I knew this would probably the only Rockets game I'd see in a long time. What i saw was not a game, it was a pathetic beating. SF never took a shot, Yao got in early foul trouble and practically didn't play, and the rest of the rockets were just there. My dad spent $500 for what? Me to see the offense of the Phoenix Suns?! I am not angry the Rockets lost, I am angry at how they lost. I blame Van Gundy. If the Rockets organization has any intelligence whatsoever they will bring back the man, the only man, to bring us our titles. They will bring back the man who revelutionized our team, they will bring back Rudy. Coaches like phil jackson are renouned for coming to a premade team and tweaking them so that they can bring home a title or seven, Rudy didn't do that. Rudy made this team, and god damnit i think he should make this team big. Fire Van Gundy now.