Could "Flip" Murray do this?

Milos · 11-17-2003, 07:25 PM

Just wondering, but do you think the emergence of Ronald Murray for the Sonics make Ray Allen available?

I know everyone hates trade threads, and this really isn't a proposal or anything, but has anyone heard anything?

When Ray gets back, who sits? Certainly not Ray, the Olympian. Barry won't sit either, but how could they not play Flip?

Sounds like the sonics have one too many starting SG's, and I think either Barry or Allen would fit very well next to Francis:

Barry is an excellent passer and a great shooter. He could run the offense while Steve plays off the ball.

Allen is probably the best pure shooter in the game, and he has much better selection than Mobley.

Just tossing out an idea I hadn't heard explored before.

If you've heard anything, please say so.

Also, don't consider this another stupid trade topic. I'm asking as much for the Rockets as for the general knowledge about how much competition the Sonics may be for a playoff spot.

KeepKenny · 11-17-2003, 10:26 PM

I heard that when Ray comes back they're going to slide Rashard over to the 4 and move Radmonavic to the 5.

xiki · 11-17-2003, 11:00 PM

There's been plenty of talk that BBarry with his expiring contract would be used to bundle a useless 5 (Booth or Potapenko) to get a useful 5, or tough 4.

Yes, BB as the 3rd guard in Houston sounds great. Finally Seattle could get the EG of their dreams (with Mooch to make the money work).

Sure, uh huh.

Oski2005 · 11-17-2003, 11:20 PM

Brent Barry hasn't seemed like himself this season and I think Murray could be molded into a PG. I'd trade Barry first.

GreenVegan76 · 11-18-2003, 02:57 AM

Good question. Allen won't be back until late December, and probably won't be ready to *really* play until mid-January. The Sonics have plenty of time to see if Murray is the real deal. Once teams have a second look at him, they'll know for sure if he's a true NBA starter.

This isn't a knock on Murray, who has stepped up and made the most of his opportunity. But the Sonics need to be certain before even discussing the possibility of moving Ray Allen -- be it to another team or even another position.

That said, any NBA team would love to have Brent Barry -- he can play three positions effectively, can hit the long ball, plays average defense and has a team-first attitude. Good rebounder, too. His expiring contract makes him more attractive for the Sonics to move, as well. Might get interesting.

ymc · 11-18-2003, 12:38 PM

Houston trades: C Kelvin Cato (7.3 ppg, 9.0 rpg, 0.7 apg in 30.8 minutes)
SG Cuttino Mobley (17.0 ppg, 3.8 rpg, 3.1 apg in 40.9 minutes)
Houston receives: SG Ray Allen (17.0 ppg, 3.8 rpg, 3.1 apg in 40.9 minutes)
Change in team outlook: -24.3 ppg, -12.8 rpg, and -3.8 apg.

Seattle trades: SG Ray Allen (17.0 ppg, 3.8 rpg, 3.1 apg in 40.9 minutes)
Seattle receives: C Kelvin Cato (7.3 ppg, 9.0 rpg, 0.7 apg in 9 games)
SG Cuttino Mobley (17.0 ppg, 3.8 rpg, 3.1 apg in 9 games)
Change in team outlook: +24.3 ppg, +12.8 rpg, and +3.8 apg.

TRADE ACCEPTED

OR

Houston trades: PF Maurice Taylor (9.8 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 1.0 apg in 23.5 minutes)
SG Cuttino Mobley (17.0 ppg, 3.8 rpg, 3.1 apg in 40.9 minutes)
Houston receives: SG Ray Allen (17.0 ppg, 3.8 rpg, 3.1 apg in 40.9 minutes)
Change in team outlook: -26.8 ppg, -8.3 rpg, and -4.1 apg.

Seattle trades: SG Ray Allen (17.0 ppg, 3.8 rpg, 3.1 apg in 40.9 minutes)
Seattle receives: PF Maurice Taylor (9.8 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 1.0 apg in 4 games)
SG Cuttino Mobley (17.0 ppg, 3.8 rpg, 3.1 apg in 9 games)
Change in team outlook: +26.8 ppg, +8.3 rpg, and +4.1 apg.

TRADE ACCEPTED

I like the second one better but not sure if Seattle needs a PF or not.

StupidMoniker · 11-18-2003, 02:16 PM

Francis for Allen straight up. Seattle gets a PG. Houston gets a better overall player who can catch and shoot from Ming kickouts.

shawn786 · 11-19-2003, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by StupidMoniker
Francis for Allen straight up. Seattle gets a PG. Houston gets a better overall player who can catch and shoot from Ming kickouts.

Id say Barry & Allen + second round pick for Steve and Cat

verse · 11-19-2003, 12:08 PM

flip murray is rapidly becoming one of my favorite ball players. so far - this year - he is playing better than iverson, francis, or marbury.

pgabriel · 11-19-2003, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by StupidMoniker
Francis for Allen straight up. Seattle gets a PG. Houston gets a better overall player who can catch and shoot from Ming kickouts.

Besides three point shooting, Allen isn't a better all around player than Francis.

I like Allen, he's definitely a smarter player, but the guy is overrated.

shawn786 · 11-19-2003, 12:28 PM

Flip scored 31 last night even though the sonics lost, but thats becuase lewis didnt step up.

Deuce · 11-19-2003, 01:09 PM

I wanted to trade for Allen last year when he was with the Bucks. Mobley and Cato for Allen was what I was proposing. That would give the Bucks someone to take the place of Allen in Mobley and a defensive presence in the middle in Cato, something they DESPERATELY needed! Instead they trade Allen and Murray for Mason and Payton and Payton walks for NOTHING. Bucks got royally screwed in that deal.

That trade did nothing to help the Bucks. Mason is a solid player but with Redd and Thomas is Mason really needed? At least with my proposal they would get someone in Cato that would actually HELP one of their deficiencies!

Allen would be a tremendous addition to the Rockets. He is a good passer and great shooter, someone to stretch the defenses with Yao in the paint. Allen would also give the Rockets their "3rd Star" player that I believe they need to compete for a championship in the West.

verse · 11-19-2003, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Instead they trade Allen and Murray for Mason and Payton and Payton walks for NOTHING. Bucks got royally screwed in that deal.

no. you are wrong.

the bucks traded allen and murray and a 1st round draft pick

for mason and payton.

the bucks got hosed really, really badly.

verse · 11-19-2003, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by pgabriel
Besides three point shooting, Allen isn't a better all around player than Francis.

I like Allen, he's definitely a smarter player, but the guy is overrated.

allen is a better player than francis. similar #s with better shot selection, better defense, better demeanor, and a smarter player. francis may get 1 more board or 1 more assist or whatever, but that doesn't make up for the chasm of difference on the court that i see...especially when you consider either one of them playing on the rockets...

B-Bob · 11-19-2003, 04:32 PM

Anyone know anything about Flip prior to this year? I mean, sure, we can look up his college or whatever, but this guy was never on my radar. I love appearances like this, and I hope he continues to play well (except against the Rox, natch).

verse · 11-19-2003, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by B-Bob
Anyone know anything about Flip prior to this year? I mean, sure, we can look up his college or whatever, but this guy was never on my radar. I love appearances like this, and I hope he continues to play well (except against the Rox, natch).

sat on the bench in milwaukee behind

sam cassell
ray allen
big dog
michael redd

pgabriel · 11-19-2003, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by verse
allen is a better player than francis. similar #s with better shot selection, better defense, better demeanor, and a smarter player. francis may get 1 more board or 1 more assist or whatever, but that doesn't make up for the chasm of difference on the court that i see...especially when you consider either one of them playing on the rockets...

Better shot selection would equal a disparage in shooting percentage greater than 1.3% for their careers. Better decision making would also result in a better Assist to turnover ratio. Better all around player would equal to better stats, no matter how much you like to disparage statistics.

Ray Allen is a nice player, but his reputation is more myth than reality.

Desert Scar · 11-19-2003, 05:17 PM

How about Cato, Mobes + Mooch for Allen and Booth?

Seattle gets their desperate upgrade at center and a good 2 guard.

Hou gets a new dead-eye shooting guard who also would be the best decision maker on the team.

As for Francis-Allen, first I think a deal could only go down in the middle of next offseason. 2nd, no thanks on the deal anyway unless Lewis & MoT or possibly Radm & Mooch are swapped as well. Francis is younger, healthier, more unstoppable, and under contract for longer than Allen. Allen's greater floor sense and greater passing skills are not close to enough to compensate for SF's benefits so Seattle has to throw in significantly more.

verse · 11-19-2003, 05:43 PM

allen's stats (which you are correct, i hate using) are better than francis while playing about twice as many seasons as francis. as a shooting guard that has NEVER had a big man to help him.

more importantly, when i watch the game, i notice that it is rare to see ray allen take a shot outside the flow of the offense. it is rare that he dribbles the ball off his foot. and it is rare that he misses a wide open teammate. those are the things that interest me. and in those areas (along with the stats) he is better than steve.

verse · 11-19-2003, 05:46 PM

btw, i don't think that i am overrating ray allen. i just think steve francis is overrated, and in fact, is on the same level (trade value wise) as ray allen. neither are good enough to carry a team on their own. yet both are excellent secondary players...depending on what kind of system you want to run. for the rox, allen is far more valuable because of the presence of yao ming.