Israel is doing the right thing by killing Hamas leaders

DaDakota · 08-25-2003, 04:17 PM

I do not understand how Hamas can be whining about their leaders being assasinated when it is them who are killing innocent civilians.

Assasinations of Hamas leaders is completely justified. If the PLO is not going to stand up to Hamas, then Israel should.

Israel should not stand by as a target and I applaud them for finally going after these scum.

DD

Friendly Fan · 08-25-2003, 04:19 PM

I agree, and would even agree with Israel hitting the Syrian Air Force while it is on the ground, followed by taking out Hamas targets there.

some SOBs need killing, and you can't achieve peace without killing them

sad but true, to quote James H.

glynch · 08-25-2003, 08:06 PM

The preceding extremist posts need to be balanced by the voice of a prominent Israeli peace activist who lives in Israel.

*******************
A Drug for the Addict
The End of the Hudna
By URI AVNERY

It was a putsch. Like any classic putsch, it was carried out by a group of officers: Sharon, Mofaz, Ya'alon and the army top brass.

It is no secret that the military party (the only really functioning party in Israel) objected to the hudna (truce) from the first moment, much as it opposed the Road Map. Its powerful propaganda apparatus, which includes all the Israeli media, spread the message: "The hudna is a disaster! Every day of the hudna is a bad day! The reduction of violence to almost zero is a great misfortune: under cover of the truce, the terrorist organizations are recovering and rearming! Every terrorist strike avoided today will hit us much harder tomorrow!"

The army command was like an addict deprived of his drug. It was forbidden to carry out the action it wanted. It was just about to crush the intifada, victory was just around the corner, all that was needed was just one final decisive blow, and that would have been that.

The military was upset when it saw the new hope that took hold of the Israeli public, the bullish mood of the stock exchange, the rise in value of the shekel, the return of the masses to the entertainment centers, the signs of optimism on both sides. In effect, It was a spontaneous popular vote against the military policy.

Ariel Sharon realized that if this went on, reality would overturn his long-term plans. Therefore, right at the beginning of the hudna, he adopted three immediate goals:

First, to topple Abu-Mazen as soon as possible. Mahmud Abbas had become the darling of George Bush, a welcome guest at the White House. The unique standing of Sharon in Washington was in danger. The pair Bush-Sharon, which was mutating into a single Busharon unit, was in danger of becoming a triangle: Bush-Sharon-Abbas. There is no greater danger to Sharon's plans.

Second, to wipe out the Road Map in its infancy. The Map obliged Sharon to remove immediately about 80 settlement outposts, freeze all settlements, stop the building of the wall and withdraw the army from all West Bank towns. Sharon never dreamt of fulfilling even one of these obligations.

Third, to put an end to the hudna and give the army back its freedom of action in all the Palestinian territories.

The question was how this could be achieved without a trace of suspicion attaching itself to Sharon. The great majority of Israelis, who had greeted the hudna, could not possibly be allowed to suspect that their own leaders were responsible for extinguishing this glimmer of hope. Even more important, it was imperative that no such pernicious idea should enter the innocent head of the good George W. All the blame must fall on the Palestinians, so that the affection for Abu-Mazen would turn into contempt and hatred.

The means for attaining this goal were selected with great care, taking into account the simplistic world of Bush with its Good Guys and Bad Guys. The Bad Guys are the terrorists. Therefore, it was advisable to kill Hamas and Jihad militants. That would not upset Bush. In the eyes of the President, to kill terrorists is a Good Thing. And as a result, the Palestinians would be compelled to break the hudna.

This is how it happened:

On August 8, Israeli soldiers killed two Hamas militants in Nablus. But the retaliation was restrained: on August 12, a Hamas suicide bomber killed one Israeli in Rosh-Ha'ayin and another bomber killed one person in the Ariel settlement. Both suicide bombers came from Nablus. Hamas announced that the hudna would continue. On August 14, the Israeli army killed Muhammad Seeder, head of the military wing of Hamas in Hebron. Five days later, on August 19, a suicide bomber from Hebron blew himself up in a Jerusalem bus, killing 20 men, women and children. Two days later, on August 21, the army assassinated Isma'il Abu-Shanab, the fourth ranking leader of Hamas.

This time it was not even possible even to pin on the victim the appellation "ticking bomb", as is usual in such cases. The man was a well-known political leader. Why was he of all people chosen for assassination? A military correspondent on Israeli TV made a slip of the tongue: Abu-Shanab was killed, he said, because he was "available". Meaning, he was an easy target because he did not go underground after the bus bombing, as did the leaders of the military wing.

This time, at long last, the aim was achieved. The Palestinian organizations announced that they were calling off the hudna. Sharon and Co. rejoiced. Within hours the Israeli army had again penetrated into the centers of the Palestinian towns, starting an orgy of arrests and house demolitions (more than 40 in a single day).

The addict leapt for the drug. His crisis was over, the officers could do all the things they had been prevented from doing for nine long weeks.

But the situation will not revert to the status quo ante intifada, so to speak. The attacks and killings will be more numerous and more cruel. The construction of the Wall deep in the Palestinian territories will be accelerated, along with the building activity in the settlements.

The army propaganda machine is already preparing the public for the "expulsion of Arafat". "Expulsion" is a euphemism produced by the "verbal laundry" section of the army, one of its most creative departments. The intention is not to expel the leader from his Ramallah compound, nor from Palestine, but from this world. The reaction of the Palestinians and the whole Arab world can be predicted. It would be a historic point of no return, perhaps eliminating the chances of peace for generations.

And the Americans? Never has the Bush administration looked so pathetic as here and now. The unfortunate Colin Powell arouses compassion with his stuttering and his emissary, John Wolf, a wolf without teeth, will go the way of all his predecessors.

After the implosion of the new order in Afghanistan and the classic guerilla war now engulfing the universally hated occupation regime in Iraq, the collapse of the Road Map will put an end to any presidential pretensions. It is much easier to have one's picture taken in the uniform of a glorious victor with a background of army extras than to steer the ship of state.

The renewal of the cycle of violence will, of course, exacerbate the economic depression in Israel. The crisis will deepen. Together with the hudna and the Road Map, tourism, foreign investment and the recovery will also die.

The economy, too, is an addict who needs his drug: nine billion dollars in US government loan guarantees are waiting for Sharon in Washington. That should be enough for the political and military elite. Only the poor will become poorer. But who cares?

All this is being done without consulting the Israeli public. There is no open discussion, no debate in the tame media, the silent Knesset and the cabinet of marionettes. That's what makes it a putsch.

To sum up: The road Map is dead, because Sharon was against it from the beginning, Bush saw it only as a photo opportunity on a nice background and Abu-Mazen did not get from Israel and the US anything that he could present as a Palestinian achievement.

What will happen now? After the shedding of yet more blood and many tears, the two peoples will arrive once more at the conviction that it is better to come to an agreement and make peace. Then they will be compelled to learn the lesson of the last chapter: It must all start from the end. Only after the picture of the final settlement clearly emerges can one deal with the immediate problems. Anything else would be a road map to the abyss.

Uri Avnery is an Israeli writer and peace activist with Gush Shalom
url

Franchise2001 · 08-25-2003, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by glynch
The preceding extremist posts need to be balanced by the voice of a prominent Israeli peace activist who lives in Israel.

Extremist posts? Only in your twisted mind glynch.

Lets see.. Hamas leaders plan suicide attacks.

Israeli soldiers can:

A. Kill the leaders and prevent bombings via missile attacks.
Result of A = Another leading popping up, but does slightly disturb plans for attacks.

B. Ask the PA to arrest these militants.
Result of B = See last thread on the bus bombing.

C. Arrest the militants themselves.
Result of C = Listening to extreme leftists like glynch b!tch and whine about how Israeli's wrongfully arrest Palestinians.

I'm sorry, but the choice that makes the most sense from the Israeli side and to anyone with common sense would chose A.

Hamas wants to simply destroy Israel and will never stop. The cease fire was to rearm and gear up for more attacks. Until they are completely powerless, there will be no peace.

Cohen · 08-25-2003, 10:57 PM

Originally posted by Franchise2001
Extremist posts? Only in your twisted mind glynch.

Lets see.. Hamas leaders plan suicide attacks.

Israeli soldiers can:

A. Kill the leaders and prevent bombings via missile attacks.
Result of A = Another leading popping up, but does slightly disturb plans for attacks.

B. Ask the PA to arrest these militants.
Result of B = See last thread on the bus bombing.

C. Arrest the militants themselves.
Result of C = Listening to extreme leftists like glynch b!tch and whine about how Israeli's wrongfully arrest Palestinians.

I'm sorry, but the choice that makes the most sense from the Israeli side and to anyone with common sense would chose A.

A. Continue cycle...plenty of new leaders to pop-up...possibly more violent than last

B. Seems like the tide in the PA was begining to turn against hamas just a little...no?

C. Understandably, not always a viable option (sometimes easier to shoot than to try to arrest)

Hamas wants to simply destroy Israel and will never stop. The cease fire was to rearm and gear up for more attacks. ...

Honestly, what if it wasn't?

I don't deny Israel's right to defend herself. But there are short-term security issues and long-term security issues. Some actions could suit the short-term at the expense of the long-term.

I just cannot imagine how sharon will ever make the right moves for the long-term peace.

DaDakota · 08-25-2003, 11:55 PM

Well,

During the CEASE fire, Hamas started bombing again...but they said it was only LIMITED bombing and did not technically violate the CEASE fire.

So, Irael retaliated by killing some of their leaders.....and thus the cycle starts again.

Palastinians will never get a country until they take some responsibilty as a people and root out the terrorists in their midst.

DD

Cohen · 08-26-2003, 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DaDakota
...
Palastinians will never get a country until they take some responsibilty as a people and root out the terrorists in their midst.

DD

True.

But Israel will never have peace as long as it grows settlements on the occupied lands, but that isn't stopping too quickly either. Now I know that stopping them will not appease ALL of the terrorists...but continuing w/ them certainly inflames the situation.

Why continue to build them at the expense of your people? ...and potentially the future of your country?

DaDakota · 08-26-2003, 12:31 AM

Cohen I totally agree.

I also think the US should cut Israel off of funds....let them stand on their own if they don't listen.

DD

FranchiseBlade · 08-26-2003, 02:14 AM

I don't have a problem with going after Hamas leaders but the time, place, and method that are the problem. Don't do missle strikes at cars in crowded locales during a cease fire.

Change will happen when one side has the strength not to strike back.

RocketMan Tex · 08-26-2003, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by FranchiseBlade

Change will happen when one side has the strength not to strike back.

Change will happen when a new generation of leadership assumes power in Israel and in the West Bank. This generation, having grown up in the midst of a never-ending cycle of violence, will finally realize that the only thing violence brings about is more violence. This generation will have the ability to teach the world that, as a people, we have to learn to live together, because if we do not, we will all die together.

Lil · 08-26-2003, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by glynch
[B]The preceding extremist posts need to be balanced by the voice of a prominent Israeli peace activist who lives in Israel.

*******************
A Drug for the Addict
The End of the Hudna
By URI AVNERY

AMEN!!! Finally some sense! If only all Israelis can think this way...

johnheath · 08-26-2003, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lil
AMEN!!! Finally some sense! If only all Israelis can think this way...

According to you, all Jews think the same way.

Now, you are admitting the opposite? That sounds like personal growth.

DaDakota · 08-26-2003, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lil
AMEN!!! Finally some sense! If only all Israelis can think this way...

Most of them that think this way know someone killed in a terrorist attack. I guess they no longer think that way.

DD

Cohen · 08-26-2003, 04:29 PM

lil, can't decide whether you're more of a dumbass or jackass.

RocketMan Tex · 08-26-2003, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cohen
lil, can't decide whether you're more of a dumbass or jackass.

A little of both, and someone who definitely needs to study up on Judaism.

Mr. Clutch · 08-26-2003, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lil
AMEN!!! Finally some sense! If only all Israelis can think this way...

At least they can think for themselves, considering they live in democracy and freedom, unlike the tolerant, always self- improving Palestinians.

OldManBernie · 08-26-2003, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RocketMan Tex
Change will happen when a new generation of leadership assumes power in Israel and in the West Bank. This generation, having grown up in the midst of a never-ending cycle of violence, will finally realize that the only thing violence brings about is more violence. This generation will have the ability to teach the world that, as a people, we have to learn to live together, because if we do not, we will all die together.

I wish I can have your optimism on this issue. The fact is, Israel's government wants this war to avoid having to deal with their own economic issues. There is nothing like a war to deflect questions about unrecoverable economy. On the Palestinian's side, their leaders are nothing but warlords. The only reason that they listen to the warlords is because of their poverty and their history with the occupied land. Unless Palestinians feel that they are no longer being wronged, and that they are able to support themselves, they will forever follow their belligerent and radical warlords. This whole region is just a tragedy.

In regards to cutting funding with Israel, that would scare the living daylights out of me. When they have no money to support their grand army, that would mean that they will take advantage of their other arsenal, NUKES. Well, at least by then, this whole tragic scenario would be over.

Mr. Clutch · 08-26-2003, 05:59 PM

OldManBernie, first I have doubts about a country starting a war to deflect its own economic problems. The last thing they want is young productive males to go off and get killed.

Second, Israel does not want this war. Why on earth do they keep asking for ceasefires and why do they keep talking with whatever "leader" the Palestinians can find? The Israelis want peace with the Palestinians more than anything. They won't give them all their land back, but a significant chunk.

OldManBernie · 08-26-2003, 06:10 PM

I believe that Israel is every bit as belligerent as their Palestinian counterparts. If I am not correct, wasn't it a Jewish Israeli that assasinated Yitzhak Rabin? I believe he was the best hope the Middle East had for peace, and now that the Military Party is in favor, there will not be peace for a long time.

Also, if there was no war, Sharon will be a laughingstock for the sputtering economy. There would be a change in the regime if there was no war. Much like Bush wanted to use the "Iraqi Freedom" to boost his re-election chances, Sharon is using this war to save him and his party's collective a$$'s.

Mr. Clutch · 08-26-2003, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by OldManBernie
I believe that Israel is every bit as belligerent as their Palestinian counterparts. If I am not correct, wasn't it a Jewish Israeli that assasinated Yitzhak Rabin? I believe he was the best hope the Middle East had for peace, and now that the Military Party is in favor, there will not be peace for a long time.

Also, if there was no war, Sharon will be a laughingstock for the sputtering economy. There would be a change in the regime if there was no war. Much like Bush wanted to use the "Iraqi Freedom" to boost his re-election chances, Sharon is using this war to save him and his party's collective a$$'s.

Your comparison is way off. The assassination of Rabin isn't something that is very common in Israel. However, if Abbas or any other leader clamps down on the terrorists I expect many Palestinians to try to kill them. There is rule of law in Israel.

You can criticize Sharon all you want, however it is the Israeli people he answers to. Israel isn't a dictatorship, its leaders can't do whatever the hell they want. The people have repeatedly said they want peace, which is why Sharon will be back at the bargaining table very soon.

If you still think Israel and Palestine are 2 sides of the same coin, answer these 2 questions:
1. What would happen if Israel won this war and got what it wanted?
2. What would happen if the Palestinians won this war and got what they wanted?