Francis and Mobley

[carayip]

Doe anyone think that it's a coincidence that usually when one of them shoots well, the other doesn't? Well the fact is that both of them are S1P2 players. Both are almost the same type of slashing guards. Both need to shoot a lot to get their rhythm going. Add a center who also needs the ball to be effective. It's almost impossible to accommodate 2 of this kind of players on the starting backcourt together. Look around the league, I honestly can't find another pair of S1P2 guards on the same starting backcourt. Even Phoenix with Marbury such a S1P2 PG, they have Penny who is willing to take a back seat to do the passing job.

So the solution: 1. One of them (preferably Francis IMO because he's shown that he can pass when he wants to while Mobley simply doesn't have any passing skills) to take a back seat and become a more passing player a la Penny. If they can make that transition, that would be prefect. If not, we maybe need to go to 2. acquire a P1S2 guard, trade either of them or move either of them to the bench (depending on the offer).

Opinions?

[rockyymf]

Trade Mobley and move Steve to 2 so that Steve can focus on shooting. Get parker if Kidd is going to sign with Spurs.

[carayip]

And yeah add the fact that both Francis and Mobley are not exactly consistent outside shooters. So when Yao pass it out of doubled team, neither of them is able to knock them down consistently enough.

Regarding Parker, I like him. He's P1S2. But he's also a slasher more than a shooter. I think if we are to move for a PG, I would like a P1S2 one but also has to have a consistent shot to complement Yao's post game and Francis's slashing game.

[daniel-bfl]

So you think YM is more consistent than SF or Cat?

Originally posted by carayip And yeah add the fact that both Francis and Mobley are not exactly consistent outside shooters. So when Yao pass it out of doubled team, neither of them is able to knock them down consistently enough. Regarding Parker, I like him. He's P1S2. But he's also a slasher more than a shooter. I think if we are to move for a PG, I would like a P1S2 one but also has to have a consistent shot to complement Yao's post game and Francis's slashing game.

[Jonhty]

Originally posted by daniel-bfl So you think YM is more consistent than SF or Cat?

isn't it a fact? Yao has been shooting around 50% fairly consistently as of late.

[carayip]

Originally posted by daniel-bfl So you think YM is more consistent than SF or Cat?

I mean OUTSIDE SHOOTING. Yao's a low post player and rarely shoots from outside anyway, so does it matter whether he's consistent or not?

[jo mama]

Originally posted by rockyymf Trade Mobley and move Steve to 2 so that Steve can focus on shooting. Get parker if Kidd is going to sign with Spurs.

offensively steve can play the two, but at 6'3'' how will he defend some of the taller SG's in the league. he is not the best defender as it is and putting him up against the likes of kobe, mcgrady, finley, ect. could be bad.
as far as PG, he is average at best. a point guard is supposed to distribute and manage the ball. francis is only an average assist man compared to other starting PGs and his turnovers are one of the worst if not the worst.
what we have is a great scorer, but mediocre point guard (ming or no, that will never get us anywhere) or we have a seriously undersized shooting guard who is an average defender at best. were screwed either way...lets just trade francis and get it over with!

[sun12]

1. We can keep Mobley as the 6th man off the bench. If he is not willing to accomodate, then trade him.

2. Get a 6'6" PG, and move SF to 2. We do not need a great PG, but an average one that can pass and make the 15-18 foot jumper because SF can sometimes handle the ball as well. This PG has to defend well though. Then we can always use the PG to defend the Kobe, T-Mac-type SG. Eric Snow is a good PG and has the size, in particular, he has played with Iverson and knows how to defend taller SG. How can we get him? IMO, EG for Snow swap might be acceptable to 76ers.

3. If we swap EG for Snow, we should sign PJ Brown as our PF for MCE.

Our starting lineup:

PG: E. Snow/SF
SG: SF/Mobley
SF: Posey/Rice/Boki
PF: PJ Brown/MoT
C: Ming

This lineup is similar to the 76ers lineup when they went to the NBA final a couple of years ago. The team is going to be very good defensively, plus Ming is Mutombo with an offensive game.

[GATER]

First, Eric Snow is maybe an inch taller than Francis. At the most.

Second, Francis at SG is a defensive disaster waiting to happen. Whenever this move is proposed, there is a major assumption that the Rockets can find a tall (6'5"+) defensively oriented PG to swap defensive assignments with Francis. Would someone please tell me who this offensive PG / defensive SG is? What's his contract like...is he available for the MLE? Is he contractually (cap wise) available in a trade which includes Mobley?

Third, moving Francis to SG without a coaching change is a moot point. Do we currently see any weak side screens or double picks to free Mobley? Without a coaching change or the addition of an offensive-minded assistant coach (fat chance since RT is a control freak), you will have Francis dominating the ball (read dribbling and take his defender of the dribble) as the SG. How is that an improvement?


For a very long time I have proposed the point forward concept. I still maintain this as the most viable alternative in keeping Steve Francis on the Rockets. And yes, there are players who can fill this function. I have posted a list in another thread. If the search engine is working I will post it.

[jeffreychang]

Now I understand why SF and CAT did not like the Rox to draft Yao. They are also smart ass that know Yao does not fit their backcourt play. If Yao turns out great, they are in trouble and being traded.

[Live]

From GATER: For a very long time I have proposed the point forward concept.

I've gone back & forth on this issue, and I've come to the conclusion that if the Rockets need to get a SF to do the job of the PG, why keep the PG?

[vcchlw]

Originally posted by jefferychang Now I understand why SF and CAT did not like the Rox to draft Yao. They are also smart ass that know Yao does not fit their backcourt play. If Yao turns out great, they are in trouble and being traded.

Well, that sounds possible. But did SF and CAT really mention they didn't like Yao to be drafted btw? They may have said so, but I think their positive comments on Yao were even more.

For the sake of Rox, either trade Steve AND Cuttino or trade YM. They just can't play together anyway.

[carayip]

Originally posted by GATER First, Eric Snow is maybe an inch taller than Francis. At the most. Second, Francis at SG is a defensive disaster waiting to happen. Whenever this move is proposed, there is a major assumption that the Rockets can find a tall (6'5"+) defensively oriented PG to swap defensive assignments with Francis. Would someone please tell me who this offensive PG / defensive SG is? What's his contract like...is he available for the MLE? Is he contractually (cap wise) available in a trade which includes Mobley? Third, moving Francis to SG without a coaching change is a moot point. Do we currently see any weak side screens or double picks to free Mobley? Without a coaching change or the addition of an offensive-minded assistant coach (fat chance since RT is a control freak), you will have Francis dominating the ball (read dribbling and take his defender of the dribble) as the SG. How is that an improvement? For a very long time I have proposed the point forward concept. I still maintain this as the most viable alternative in keeping Steve Francis on the Rockets. And yes, there are players who can fill this function. I have posted a list in another thread. If the search engine is working I will post it.

I don't think you get it. We don't need to move Francis to SG. We can get a SG who is P1S2. Francis can still handle the ball. The point is that we would have 1 less player in our backcourt who doesn't demands shots which could create better ball movement within the whole team.

Plus I am totally against the point forward concept. Tell me which team(s) have ever won with a point forward.

[pgabriel]

Originally posted by carayip I don't think you get it. We don't need to move Francis to SG. We can get a SG who is P1S2. Francis can still handle the ball. The point is that we would have 1 less player in our backcourt who doesn't demands shots which could create better ball movement within the whole team. Plus I am totally against the point forward concept. Tell me which team(s) have ever won with a point forward.

I guess you've never heard of Larry Bird.

I agree with you on Francis and Mobley, they don't mesh, and the same is true for Mo Taylor, when the three are out there together, you have three players that demand the ball. I like Mobley, but we need a spot up shooter at the 2. We need more players who can run off picks and can catch and shoot, and currently the only one we have is Rice, and T Morris when he is on his game.

[Live]

From carayip: I don't think you get it. We don't need to move Francis to SG. We can get a SG who is P1S2. Francis can still handle the ball. The point is that we would have 1 less player in our backcourt who demands shots which could create better ball movement. Plus I am totally against the point forward concept. Tell me which team(s) have ever won with a point forward.

If you can find a S1P2 SG, let us know. And once again, if that SG can play PG better than the PG, why keep the PG?

And as far as the winning with a point forward question, I'll give you a hint. He was Robin to Michael Jordan's Batman.

And Bird was such a good passer and ball-handler, he could also be considered a point forward.

[GATER]

Originally posted by Live I've gone back & forth on this issue, and I've come to the conclusion that if the Rockets need to get a SF to do the job of the PG, why keep the PG?

Why keep the PG? I don't know..any of the following? He has freakish atleticism, a desire to win and a strong work ethic, no one will give you equal value in a trade, you'd PO his runnin' bud, you'd alienate a fan base, you'd alter team chemistry, you'd need to replace 20 ppg...any of these work for you?

Perhaps you misunderstood me...if you keep Francis, he is a liability if used at the 2 on defense. You are then faced with finding alternatives. I think a point forward (leaving Steve at PG) is preferable and easier to find than P1S2 SG.

[Live]

From GATER: Why keep the PG? I don't know..any of the following? He has freakish atleticism, a desire to win and a strong work ethic, no one will give you equal value in a trade, you'd PO his runnin' bud, you'd alienate a fan base, you'd alter team chemistry, you'd need to replace 20 ppg...any of these work for you? Perhaps you misunderstood me...if you keep Francis, he is a liability if used at the 2 on defense. You are then faced with finding alternatives. I think a point forward (leaving Steve at PG) is preferable and easier to find than P1S2 SG.

All of those "reasons" given could work for 50 other players in the league, the NBA is a league of hard-working, competitive, athletic freaks just like Steve.

The "PO his buddy" reason is just weak, this isn't High School.

Ditto for the "turning off the fans" excuse. I mean, it's not like Francis is Dream, the fans won't be too broken up especially if the Rockets are getting a good player back in return.

And don't be so sure about the "equal value" reasoning.
If you looking for a "our PG for your PG" trade, then yeah the Rocks are going to get hosed. But who says they can't address other needs, such as depth, which could go a long way towards replacing the 20 PPG Steve brings to the table.

So if you know that Steve at the 2 over Cat equals a drop-off on defense and maybe a slight improvement on offense, why move Cuttino? Is Cuttino really the problem, or would he be best served playing next to a good P1S2 PG?

If you can find one of these point forwards, which are as rare as dominant centers, to essentially play PG, why not find a PG who can play PG?

FWIW, although I've written this lengthy post, I'm not in favor of just trading Francis. I'd rather hope he grow up and start playing better basketball.

Bringing in a point forward to essentially do his job sends so many bad messages.

[StupidMoniker]

Trade Francis, Griffin, and Rice for Brand and Miller in a S&T. Throw in draft picks if necessary, or even cash considerations (Sterling will LOVE that). We get a consistent PF and a pass first PG to distribute the ball to our weapons (Cat, Brand, Ming).

[noskrillwill]

Originally posted by carayip Plus I am totally against the point forward concept. Tell me which team(s) have ever won with a point forward.

Scottie Pippen ring a bell?

[StupidMoniker]

noskrill hmm, is that some kind of riced out plankton? :D