Francis on pace to set team TO record?

Kiki · 01-02-2003, 05:36 PM

As much as I love Stevie, his knack for trying to dribble through crowds and forcing tough passes troubles me. The optimist in me says that he'll grow out of this phase in the next few years, now that he has Yao to help take some of the scoring pressure off his shoulders. I also think he's starting to realize that more passes = more wins. But the current TO trend is troubling nonetheless:

2000 3.97 (TO/game)
2001 3.31
2002 3.88
2003 3.90

btw, the record is held by Sampson/Malone (3.98/game, 326 total), and Francis would have probably already broken the record if he hadn't missed 5 games his rookie year.

So am I off base here? Is everyone else ok with these numbers?

SLA · 01-02-2003, 05:39 PM

Hmm...can you tell me how many turnovers Kobe Bryant makes? I would like to know...

Kiki · 01-02-2003, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SLA
Hmm...can you tell me how many turnovers Kobe Bryant makes? I would like to know...

sure, no prob:

1997 1.6
1998 2.0
1999 3.1
2000 2.8
2001 3.2
2002 2.8
2003 4.0

Kobe is having a down year, at least in this category, but his career average is 2.6, much better than Stevie's 3.7.

SLA · 01-02-2003, 05:45 PM

Well...Steve is a point guard. But Kobe kinda acts like a point guard since Derek Fisher doesn't do anything. Hmm...I think he is on pace to set a team record. I don't see anything bad. As long as it doesn't increase to 5 per game. As long as we win...

Can you tell me Jason Kidd and Gary Payton's average?

Kiki · 01-02-2003, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SLA
Can you tell me Jason Kidd and Gary Payton's average?

Kidd is at 3.3 this year, with a 3.4 career average. but he also averages 9.4 assists/game, a 2.63 assist/TO ratio.

Payton is at 2.5 this year, with a 2.5 career average. and with 9.1 assits/game, he has an outstanding 3.71 assist/TO ratio.

Francis' ratio is 1.54

rockbox · 01-02-2003, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SLA
Well...Steve is a point guard. But Kobe kinda acts like a point guard since Derek Fisher doesn't do anything. Hmm...I think he is on pace to set a team record. I don't see anything bad. As long as it doesn't increase to 5 per game. As long as we win...

Can you tell me Jason Kidd and Gary Payton's average?

Kidd averages over 3 a game and he isn't nearly as good of an offensive player.

SLA · 01-02-2003, 05:56 PM

Thanks a lot.

Jason Kidd and Gary Payton are both similar players who are great distributors. But they can't score like Steve Francis. They are still more efficient than Steve Francis.

I have another question. Who is paid more? Gary Payton or Steve Francis? And doesn't Gary want some big contract that he's too old to get?

DaDakota · 01-02-2003, 05:57 PM

I don't like them, but I really only look at won loss record.

DaDakota

Fegwu · 01-02-2003, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rockbox
Kidd averages over 3 a game and he isn't nearly as good of an offensive player.

Because offense is secondary as far as Jason Kidd is concerned. He is not an offense type PG. The ultimate selfless PG/player (see also Stockton) who can score if need be.

Sometime numbers can be overrated or inflated for various reasons. I like Stevie but I will not be completely sold until he starts to make good basketball decisions (on the court) quarter by quarter - game by game. It is all about simplicity and heady play (God knows Stevie has the athletic talent to among the best in the NBA).

SLA · 01-02-2003, 05:59 PM

When Gary Payton struggles, his whole team is gone. They are fighting at 9th place...

Jason Kidd usually is always good, but if he is in a slump, his team is gone as well. They rely on him.

The Rockets are winning. That's all that matters.

Kiki · 01-02-2003, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rockbox
Kidd averages over 3 a game and he isn't nearly as good of an offensive player.

If by offensive player you mean scoring, then yes, you're right. But if you consider assists as an offensive category, which I believe most people do, then I think Kidd has the edge.

Kidd: 8.7 assists/game X 2 pts + 20.8 pts/game = 38.2

Francis: 6.0 assists/game X 2pts + 23.8 pts/game = 35.8

This also doesn't take into account FG%, in which Kidd is also slightly better...

Kiki · 01-02-2003, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SLA

When Gary Payton struggles, his whole team is gone. They are fighting at 9th place...

Jason Kidd usually is always good, but if he is in a slump, his team is gone as well. They rely on him.

The Rockets are winning. That's all that matters.

The Rox are only 1.5 games ahead of Seattle, and several games behing NJ, so 'winning' is a relative term...

gr8-1 · 01-02-2003, 06:48 PM

I have no problem with it. Pippen lead the league in TO's once, and I think Glenn Robinson does. Besides, I know it's all relative, but alot of Steve'e TOs look like he's trying to save the ball and he steps out.

I think this is another "Steve is hurting Yao, Yao needs to shoot 25 times a game because he's Chinese" thread.

Pat · 01-02-2003, 07:08 PM

Steve has a lot of tirnovers no matter how many somebody else has. The biggest problem I have with these statistics is they don't show the forced shots he makes into a double or tripple teams that have about a one-in-ten chance of going in. These are flat out turnovers, but they don't show in the stat category except as a field goal attempt.

SmeggySmeg · 01-02-2003, 07:49 PM

they have been ok (actually usually unnoticed) to most around here for 3 yrs why would that change now, Cat cops the flack round here and Steve is the glory highlight reel boy... get with the program. Love Steve and rip Cat!!

Fegwu · 01-02-2003, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gr8-1
I think this is another "Steve is hurting Yao, Yao needs to shoot 25 times a game because he's Chinese" thread.

Get over yourself and stop being paranoid. Why can't a Rocket fan express his or her opinion without being ridiculed or labeled? Do you expect all fans to be apologist. I am grateful of Steve but I still expect him to do better. Save for health reasons, I may not be making many excuses for him anymore because he is in his 4th year. This same faith will befall Boki, Yao and Eddy Griffin - if the under perform after their honeymoon seasons.

Remember playing the hardest does not mean you are playing the smartest.

Quote:

Originally posted by Pat
Steve has a lot of turnovers no matter how many somebody else has. The biggest problem I have with these statistics is they don't show the forced shots he makes into a double or tripple teams that have about a one-in-ten chance of going in. These are flat out turnovers, but they don't show in the stat category except as a field goal attempt.

Great point. Also I want Stevie to play for a long long time as a Rocket and I will prefer he minimise jumping into tripple teams. He oftens gets knocked down to the floor hard.

gr8-1 · 01-02-2003, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SmeggySmeg
they have been ok (actually usually unnoticed) to most around here for 3 yrs why would that change now, Cat cops the flack round here and Steve is the glory highlight reel boy... get with the program. Love Steve and rip Cat!!

Well, considering Steve has better #'s across the board, it would be logical that Steve is the golden boy. He's also a year younger (and less experienced) and arguably better. The only year Cat shot better than Steve was last year I believe.

People bitch about Steve's assist/to ratio, but Cuttino's is actually worse.

Free Agent · 01-02-2003, 10:34 PM

It's simple....guys who handle the ball more than anyone on the team will have the most turnovers. It's happened to Stockton and Magic Johnson.

No big deal.

CY02 · 01-02-2003, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gr8-1
I think this is another "Steve is hurting Yao, Yao needs to shoot 25 times a game because he's Chinese" thread.

You are way too sensitive. I don't think that's the initiative of the original poster.

As a Rockets fan, we want to our player to improve and reduce his weakness and mistake right?

Or you don't?

SLA · 01-02-2003, 10:53 PM

OK.
WE ARE WINNING.
The Seattle Supersonics are 1.5 games behind us. When was that supposed to happen? We are supposed to be 15 games behind them. We aren't even supposed to be in the playoffs. The Supersonics were supposed to have a great year like usual but then they started losing a lot of games. Why? Gary Payton was probably part of the problem....don't know why else. But if you took Jason Kidd out of the lineup...the New Jersey Nets would be like the Cleveland Cavaliers.