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Harvard professor argues for 'abolishing' white race

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout' started by x34, Sep 5, 2002.

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  1. x34

    x34 Member

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    Harvard professor argues for 'abolishing' white race

    By Joyce Howard Price
    THE WASHINGTON TIMES

    Noel Ignatiev, a founder of a journal called Race Traitor and a fellow at Harvard's W.E.B. DuBois Institute, a leading black-studies department, argues in the current issue of Harvard Magazine that "abolishing the white race" is "so desirable that some may find it hard to believe" that anyone other than "committed white supremacists" would oppose it.

    In excerpts appearing this week in newspapers nationwide, Mr. Ignatiev, who is white, writes that "every group within white America," including "labor unionists, ethnic groups, college students, schoolteachers, taxpayers and white women" has at one time or another "advanced its particular and narrowly defined interests at the expense of black people as a race."

    Mr. Ignatiev pledges in the essay that his journal, Race Traitor, intends to "keep bashing the dead white males, and the live ones, and the females, too, until the social construct known as 'the white race' is destroyed — not 'deconstructed' but destroyed."

    His colleagues at Harvard seem not to take his proposal entirely seriously. Others cite the article as an example of Harvard's institutional racism.

    Sara Stillman, assistant to the publisher of Harvard Magazine, says there's clearly some "misunderstanding" about what Mr. Ignatiev means by the inflammatory language.

    Asked in a 1997 interview with the New York Times if he hates his own white skin, Mr. Ignatiev said, "No, but I want to abolish the privileges."

    "The white race is like a private club based on one huge assumption that all those who look white, are, whatever their complaints or reservations, fundamentally loyal to the race. We want to dissolve that club, to explode it," he said.

    Christopher Reed, executive editor of Harvard Magazine, defended what Mr. Ignatiev wrote in the September-October issue. "He's arguing against the mind-set and attitude that automatically grants privileges to white people he wants more fairness," Mr. Reed said in a statement.

    The university's public affairs office said it had no comment.

    The article already has stirred anger among some conservatives, who see the article as typical of the liberal climate in academia. "Suppose Frontpagemagazine.com ran a headline 'Abolish the Black Race'?" asks David Horowitz on his magazine's Web site. "What do you think the reaction would be? But at Harvard, where demonizing whites is merely the standard curriculum, an article like this can appear in a glossy magazine whose cover story is 'Whither the Art Museum?'

    "Race hatred, if directed against white people, is just part of the progressive culture," says Mr. Horowitz, a radical-turned-conservative and author of "Civil Wars: The Controversy Over Reparations for Slavery."

    Mr. Ignatiev, a one-time steelworker and Marxist activist who earned a doctorate at Harvard, could not be reached for comment. But he writes about what he believes at the Web site of Race Traitor, whose motto is: "Treason to whiteness is loyalty to humanity."

    "The key to solving the social problems of our age is to abolish the white race, which means no more and no less than abolishing the privileges of the white skin. Until that task is accomplished, even partial reform will prove elusive, because white influence permeates every issue, domestic and foreign, in U.S. society," the journal's statement of purpose says.

    "The existence of the white race depends on the willingness of those assigned to it to place their racial interests above class, gender, or any other interests they hold. The defection of enough of its members to make it unreliable as a predictor of behavior will lead to its collapse."

    Among the "privileges" of being white, according to Race Traitor, are not being followed by security in stores, not being harassed by police, having easier access to better schools, jobs and housing, and not being asked whether skin color or affirmative action got you a job.

    In the essay in Harvard Magazine, Mr. Ignatiev says he always expected "bewilderment" at his views from "people who still think of race as biology."

    "We frequently get letters accusing us of being 'racists' just like the KKK, and have even been called a 'hate group.'" he wrote.

    Mr. Ignatiev attempts to clarify how he could be seeking to abolish the white race without calling for genocide. "Our standard response is to draw an analogy with anti-royalism: to oppose monarchy does not mean killing the king; it means getting rid of crowns, thrones, royal titles, etc."

    Abolition of a monarchy has often been marked by killing the monarch and sometimes his family members; for example, England in 1649, France in 1792, Russia in 1917 and Iraq in 1958. Even those nations that have abolished kings or emperors without regicide generally have forced the monarch into exile.

    Mr. Ignatiev grew up in a Philadelphia family that he says was devoid of racial bias. As a child, he swam at a free community pool, where he was the only white patron. He says his parents refused to pay a $1 fee that was designed to keep other public pools all-white.

    Mr. Ignatiev's parents, Jewish immigrants from Russia, were not college educated, but he attended the University of Pennsylvania, dropping out after three years. He worked in a Chicago steel mill and in factories that made farm equipment and electrical parts for two decades. At the steel mill, he helped organize strikes and protests by the predominantly black work force.

    He was laid off from the steel mill in 1984, a year after he was arrested on charges of throwing a paint bomb at a strike-breaker's car. He set up Marxist discussion groups in the early 1980s. In 1985, Mr. Ignatiev was accepted to the Harvard Graduate School of Education without an undergraduate degree. After earning his master's, he joined the Harvard faculty as a lecturer and worked toward a doctorate in U.S. history.

    His dissertation was his book, "How the Irish Became White." Mr. Ignatiev said the book told how Irish immigrants came to the United States and became "oppressors" by emulating American whites.
     
    #1 x34, Sep 5, 2002
  2. BrianKagy

    BrianKagy Contributing Member

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    Nice pre-emptive slight to the intelligence of people who disagree with him-- "Now, some of you will not be smart enough to agree with me..."
     
    #2 BrianKagy, Sep 5, 2002
  3. MadMax

    MadMax Contributing Member

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    His dissertation was his book, "How the Irish Became White." Mr. Ignatiev said the book told how Irish immigrants came to the United States and became "oppressors" by emulating American whites.


    This is the story of my life...I tried soooo hard to be white...but I was always "just" Irish. But I found as I grew older that my body was changing...and my mind with it. Suddenly, I was able to perform feats of strength the likes of which I had only dreamed of. It was true...I was finally white!! Sure, I lost the ability to dance and to look cool while walking down the street...but damn it, I was an oppressor now...an enforcer...it was worth it. And I've never looked back since.

    Tell this jackass I am white...that i will be white...that I will remain white...and my progeny will be white. No more Irish for me, sir. No more potatoes and silly Catholic/Protestant disputes. No, sir. I'm white...and if you want to come take that from me you'll have to pry it from dead, cold hands.

    (p.s. -- what the hell is this guy talking about??)
     
    #3 MadMax, Sep 5, 2002
  4. mateo

    mateo Contributing Member

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    People are weird.
     
    #4 mateo, Sep 5, 2002
  5. El_Conquistador

    El_Conquistador King of the D&D, The Legend, #1 Ranking
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    Harvard had another guy that consistently tried to start race wars in their black studies department, Cornel West. West moved over to Princeton earlier this year. When he came to speak at Rice, I was not very happy. His relative fame is the result of emotional outbursts on race, not the result of any substantive, constructive thought.

    All these guys really do is belabor a point that not many people disagree with. There is little dispute that the evolution of power in the United States has not distributed wealth, privileges or influence equally. My question is why should it? If people perform well, they should reap the rewards of their effort. This is true in any competitive field. Consider the game of basketball for a moment. Basketball is a game that is very well developed. Millions of people play the game and millions more support it financially. Carroll Dawson and Les Alexander fill their team out based on who gives them the best chance of winning. They reward players with contracts based on who they think will advance this cause (Cato notwithstanding). To adopt this author's view to the situation would imply that the lower paid Rockets are disadvantaged because of race. Since Dan Langhi and Jason Collier don't make as much as Steve, Cuttino, Moochie, Cato, and Rice, then there must be some sort of privilege that Jason and Oscar are missing out on. This is the most absurd line of reasoning I have ever encountered.

    Want equal distribution of wealth? Want distribution based on need, not merit? Move to the communist Soviet Union. Oh wait, that system proved it didn't work.
     
    #5 El_Conquistador, Sep 5, 2002
  6. Cohen

    Cohen Contributing Member

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    Odd, I always thought that the Irish helped make America what it is, not the other way around.
     
    #6 Cohen, Sep 5, 2002
  7. MadMax

    MadMax Contributing Member

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    come on, Cohen!! get with the program...man...some people are so stupid!

    we didn't make america what it is until AFTER it made us white...geez, man!

    certainly you are smart enough to agree with me, right?

    :D
     
    #7 MadMax, Sep 5, 2002
  8. Nomar

    Nomar Member

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    And people respect Harvard why again? Ahh yes. It is an old institution. And they have a large endowment. :rolleyes:

    In my opinion, you go to Harvard if you want to be taught by raving crack-pot liberal lunatics, and after graduation you pretend to be intelligent.

    My dad says that the Harvard business school is the most overrated piece of crap in the world and that Harvard B-School grads have ****ed up more businesses and corporations than anybody could possibly imagine.
     
    #8 Nomar, Sep 5, 2002
  9. keeley

    keeley Contributing Member

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    You got me rolling over here, Max.

    Up until I read that article, I considered myself an Irish-American. He has opened my eyes to the fact that over the last four years, I have learned to oppress 6,800 users and counting here on the BBS.
     
    #9 keeley, Sep 5, 2002
  10. MadMax

    MadMax Contributing Member

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    hey...no need to think of yourself as Irish anymore, my brother. pull yourself out of that miry pit...you're white now....OPPRESS ON!!!
     
    #10 MadMax, Sep 5, 2002
  11. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member
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    I have to disagree with you about Cornell West. The guy is extremely educated, and his books definitely show constructive thought. I don't agree with everything he says, but he is always sincere, earnest, and civil. He's also a very devout Christian, and has occasionally parted with other revolutionary thinkers who have attacked religion.
    Do you mean that the Whites who brought slaves here, and reaped the rewards and riches of the slaves work, performed well, and only got ahead based on their effort, and not because they used slave labor? Or do you believe that the whites that got ahead because of their genocide of American Indians, and stole their land got ahead because of their effort and hard work?
    Do you believe that the Robber Barons who used child labor, ran slums, and factories with unhealthy working conditions, were just reaping the reward of their efforts?

    Those examples of power show people reaping the rewards of immorality, corruption, slavery, and murder, as opposed to their 'effort'.

    The example you used of the Rockets basketball team, is based on something very modern, the examples this author used are historical.

    For the record I don't really agree with this guys article as a whole. But historically wealth hasn't been distributed only by people's hard effort.
     
    #11 FranchiseBlade, Sep 5, 2002
  12. MadMax

    MadMax Contributing Member

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    but the problem is he attempts to use these historical examples to attack people TODAY!! If I could go back in time and fight against slavery, I would...I can't though. And demonizing me for the color of my skin is no better...it's just flat out ridiculous...and it makes this guy as close to irrelevant to real life as anyone can get.
     
    #12 MadMax, Sep 5, 2002
  13. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member
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    MadMax,

    Like I said I don't agree with the guys article for the most part.

    I also didn't agree with Trader Jorge's response about the historical division of wealth and power in this country, simply being a reward for effort.
     
    #13 FranchiseBlade, Sep 5, 2002
  14. El_Conquistador

    El_Conquistador King of the D&D, The Legend, #1 Ranking
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    Yawn, another argument centered around 100-year old injustices and how everything since then is the direct result of those actions and nothing but those actions. The success of Asian immigrants is the best proof that this argument is severely flawed. They have the highest average income of any ethnic group in the U.S. and last I checked they weren't benefitting from slave labor in the South before the Civil War.
     
    #14 El_Conquistador, Sep 5, 2002
  15. rimbaud

    rimbaud Contributing Member
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    You do realize he isn't speaking literally, right?

    I actually agree with him, to an extent.

    Down with whitey.

    Nomar, lol "my dad says." How can Harvard Biz School be crap when it does its job of being a machine as far as placing high powered positions? Obviously it has nothing to do with classes, etc...but are those really the point of biz school, anyway?

    I do think Harvard is overrated, though...they are whores to their endowment and the relentless pursuit to "grow" it (how quaint that I incorporate useless business jargon).
     
    #15 rimbaud, Sep 5, 2002
  16. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member
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    TJ,
    I was talking about the historical distribution of wealth and power. You mentioned the evolution of power in this country. During that evolution, those that gained, and held power and wealth didn't always recieve it as a reward for something they've earned. They often stole it, and exploited others to gain it.
     
    #16 FranchiseBlade, Sep 5, 2002
  17. Rockets2K

    Rockets2K Clutch Crew

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    I dont have anything constructive to add to this that hasnt been said already in thisa and other "race" threads..I just wanted to say that Max has severely destroyed my opinion of all lawyers.

    I cant count how many timess I have read a MadMax posting and said to myself "I agree completely, what a smart guy."
    Are you sure you're not just posing as a lawyer? :D
     
    #17 Rockets2K, Sep 5, 2002
  18. TRADECUTTINO

    TRADECUTTINO Member

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    Somehow this article reminded me of a scene in "private parts" where Stern does a skit pretending to be a radical black racist man. "Kill the white man, kill the white man until he is dead... thank you ."

    Theres some truth to the article, but what he fails to identify is people enjoy doing business and working with others they can relate to. Now, in a awkward sort of way, yes blacks are probably passed over for positions becuase some people are simply intimidated or to lazy to deal with another culture. And god forbid for those that their only interaction with other races are viewed only on the Springer Shows and watching MTV rap videos.

    I think this guys energy could be better utilized telling blacks to become more risk takers. Don't depend on someone to hire you, but to provide for your own by saving, busting your butt and starting your own business. This article gives nothing more than those that make excuses for their failures more to gripe about. For those blacks that have already figured out how to escape the rat race, this article is pure comedy for them.
     
    #18 TRADECUTTINO, Sep 5, 2002
  19. heypartner

    heypartner Contributing Member

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    x34 and Rockets2K,

    are you two wanting Smeggy World Tour tickets or not. Check your email or email me. Deadline is fast approaching.
     
    #19 heypartner, Sep 5, 2002
  20. Rockets2K

    Rockets2K Clutch Crew

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    ok..check will be there by Mon. sorry for not responding yet..just checked it this mornin.
     
    #20 Rockets2K, Sep 5, 2002
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