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[michecon]

Originally posted by Lil You guys are pretty cool! And already your thinking is light-years ahead of the official CCP party line. With Yao Ming coming to America, and even more NBA games being telecast in China, maybe eventually everyone will be as reasonable and cosmopolitan in outlook in China. Hehe, who would have thought that in the end, it was the NBA that did what all those years of propaganda (ala Voice of America) could not! Then again, maybe we'll just start seeing little Chinese boys running around with baggy shorts, tattoos (with f***-up Chinese characters), Afros and dreadlocks, listening to Shaq rapping... ...shudder... :D

And thanks to this BBS, thanks to moderator who hasn't locked this thread. This board constantly amazes me. Now I can read the thinking of china's hot-chick-chasing-preaching readings thousands years ago from some white bro (ottomaton, I am more impressed). I can't wait for the season to start.

On a final note on the media and perception:
Average Americans are disadvantaged when it comes to the world view if he's not well travelled or well educated (frankly, they are among the better travelled and better educated in the world.) Average American doesn't care and frankly he doesn't need to. If you just listen to the news, you will find America is a terrible place, all those kidnapping, child abuse, killing all day in the news. Somehow, you don't feel that way, why? Because, you live here, you can chat with guy on the street, play Bball with average joe, you get plenty of love first hand. Same thing is going on for the wrold news, but you don't get the same chance of first hand experience. It's real easy to have a perception about something you don't really know well. I actually find programs about China in PBS are more balanced--when the program is not market oriented and people who really knows China are talking.

To prlen: I think healthy discussions promote understanding or comprimise among reasonal persons. It's the base of any democracy. I do think we should express more--in a reasonable way.

peace

[Lil]

Originally posted by TechLabor Lil, it looks like you do feel some Chinese in your heart. I am sorry for throwing some harsh words on you in one of my previous posts.

I'm sorry too for writing some stuff that was offensive for you too. Even among ethnic Chinese, we have a lot of differences!

My problem with some of the people in taiwan is that they helps other people to contain China. Your former president even wrote a book about breaking China into seven pieces. If that really happens, do you think U.S. still need taiwan?

People in Taiwan need to rely on others to protect them. There was a chance in the 70s, when we could have developed the ability to protect ourselves (when we had a very successful nuclear weapons program). But that was stifled by none other than America... So our having to live in fear today is partly America's fault too, as much as it is China's. What we call protecting Taiwan, is what you call 'containing China'.

But why must my people live in fear? Why must they feel compelled to pay foreigners to protect themselves from fellow Chinese? Some things in this world are simply tragic.

I'm a great admirer of President LTH. He suggested a form of Greater Chinese Confederation along the lines of the EU which included Taiwan, and gave autonomy to regions such as Tibet, Xinjiang, and HK. If you just sat back and considered what the optimal, future form of the Chinese government would look like, I think your answer might actually be very similar...

Your current vice president publicly praise the Japanese actions in WWII. The Japanese killed 20~30 million Chinese in WWII. They were no better than the Nazies. So, it is like praising the Nazies in Isreal. What do you expect?

Taiwan had a vastly different experience from China over the past 107 years, and especially during WW2. There are indeed many things, economics/institutions/education/infrastructure/living standards, we must thank the Japanese for. And our colonial experience was vastly different from Korea or Manchuria. Japan in Taiwan instituted one of the most benevolent and progressive colonial administrations in the entire world at the time (even when compared to all the colonies of Western powers). And despite Japan's many many sins (which have been endlessly pounded into the Taiwanese people's heads by Taiwan's post-war Nationalist govt), older Taiwanese people who lived through that period still have a tremendous amount of respect for Japan, and their culture left an indelible mark on Taiwan's current society, even with many older post-WW2 migrants from China (making up 15% of our population) hating the Japanese as much as you.

Our VP merely gave credit where it was due. That statement may have offended all of Asia. But it was the truth.

Does that mean that Taiwanese people have no pride? That we are willing slaves? That we are running dogs in the service of Japan? NO!!!! Not for one second did we prefer colonial subjugation to self-determination. But we were sold out by the Chinese govt in 1895 to be exploited as secondary citizens for 50 years. Then the Chinese came back and oppressed and exploited us for another 50 years. In many ways the Chinese who came after the Japanese were far worse... You think China had it bad. At least you guys didn't have to be slaves.

Right now is a critical moment for China and taiwan. We should do whatever we can to prevent a war between the two sides, i.e. Chinese killing Chinese. But your current president is pushing for the war to happen. When the war happens, I am sure the Americans will drop some food from the air to the Chinese people to show their humanity.

That is the ultimate fallacy. A war between us will hurt Taiwanese people more than anybody else. You've got the missiles. You've got the bombers. You've got the subs. And our president isn't stupid... Nobody will do more to prevent a war.

But if it is a choice between being enslaved again or fighting...

For China to become strong, vibrant, and democratic, we need to work together now, and to avoid a war. We need you guys now instead of in the future. If you guys try everything possible to contain China now and later want to join China, I don't see why China needs taiwan when China is strong and democratic. After all, taiwan is only a small island full of people.

All China has to do is to recognise Taiwan, give her the space, peace, and dignity she deserves, and China can have all the help it needs. Taiwan spends over $40 billion dollars a year on defenses, not to mention a military draft which wastes 2+ years of every Taiwanese male's productive youth. Do you think we like that? I bet Taiwan would willingly contribute half her tax revenues (>US$100 billion) to help China if we didn't have to fight each other!

This past week, China just spent US$200 million to pry Nauru (what! is it even a country or is it just a pile of seashells with 50 people living on it!!???) away from Taiwan's list of allies. And Taiwan just paid $55 million to Haiti. For what?! Damn! We can have three whole new Chinese Basketball Associations for that money!

Tragic...

But hey, let's hope Yao Ming's coming to America will bring China and Taiwan closer. I'm sure many Taiwanese people will love to see him play, and for the Rockets too!! What a great day for a Taiwanese Rockets fan like myself!

[almostReady]

Our VP merely gave credit where it was due. That statement may have offended all of Asia. But it was the truth.

Lil, it might be truth in in some of yours mind, but it's a shame in other peoples' eye.

[TechLabor]

The reason that I've posted so many on this thread is because I live in Texas. Why do I live in here? Because I can make much more money than living in other places and other countries. I can also enjoy a big house which is impossible in China and in most parts of the world. I also love the people here. They are vibrant, competitive, open minded, and friendly to foreigners and to each other. I don't like the media brain washing here, especially the China bashing part. If there is a war happens between U.S. and China, it will hurt my interest here, and my children's interets.

[Yetti]

Please keep Taiwan/China politics out of our sport of basketball.Thank you!

[michecon]

AR: I don't think average mainlanders are best informed about Taiwanese side out of the story either. No need to bash the person(s) in order to establish your arguments.

[almostReady]

I only stated some truth (at least to me). It is definitely not meant to be personal. I appologize to everyone (including Lil) for the sometime overheated non-basketball talk. I will stop now. Go Rockets!

[RigoRocket]

A person I know who visited China recently brought back the 2nd Lord of the Rings DVD!

[Invisible Fan]

Originally posted by TechLabor The reason that I've posted so many on this thread is because I live in Texas. Why do I live in here? Because I can make much more money than living in other places and other countries. I can also enjoy a big house which is impossible in China and in most parts of the world. I also love the people here. They are vibrant, competitive, open minded, and friendly to foreigners and to each other. I don't like the media brain washing here, especially the China bashing part. If there is a war happens between U.S. and China, it will hurt my interest here, and my children's interets.

Watch BBC news on PBS or cable. It's as unbiased as you're gonna get...

I stay away from news because it's so sensationalized that it depresses me. I rather read it online.

[toughguy]

Originally posted by RigoRocket A person I know who visited China recently brought back the 2nd Lord of the Rings DVD!

Cool! I can't stand to wait til December to watch it! Can I buy it from your friend after he's done with it? Maybe I should just download it from iMesh or other P2P programs. But I'll definitely watch it again in the theater.

[Panda]

The following are excerpts from Microsoft Encarta 99¡¯s Taiwan history section.
In 1644 the Manchus of northeastern China defeated the Ming dynasty and established the Qing dynasty. Meanwhile, a group of Ming followers led by Cheng Ch¡¯eng-kung, known in the West as Koxinga, drove the Dutch from Taiwan and occupied the island¡¯s southwestern portion. Cheng established a formal Chinese government, ruling Taiwan as a Ming enclave. It wasn¡¯t until 1683 that the island finally fell to Qing rule. Thereafter, immigration to Taiwan from mainland China increased greatly. As a result of Britain¡¯s victory against China in the Opium Wars and the ratification of the Treaty of Tientsin in 1860, two ports on Taiwan¡¯s western coast opened to foreign ships. Roman Catholic and Protestant missions were established on the island soon after.
During the Sino-French War of 1884 and 1885 the French imposed a partial blockade against Taiwan. The Treaty of Shimonoseki in 1895 terminated the first Sino-Japanese War and required that China cede Taiwan and the P¡¯enghu Islands to Japan. However, the Chinese inhabitants of Taiwan refused to submit and instigated a rebellion that was put down by the Japanese. For the next 50 years a stringent occupation and colonization followed, including a rigorous effort at Japanization¡ªthe attempt to replace Chinese culture and tradition with that of the Japanese.

Lil: There are indeed many things, economics/institutions/education/infrastructure/living standards, we must thank the Japanese for. And despite Japan's many many sins (which have been endlessly pounded into the Taiwanese people's heads by Taiwan's post-war Nationalist govt), older Taiwanese people who lived through that period still have a tremendous amount of respect for Japan, and their culture left an indelible mark on Taiwan's current society. Japan in Taiwan instituted one of the most benevolent and progressive colonial administrations in the entire world at the time (even when compared to all the colonies of Western powers). But we were sold out by the Chinese govt in 1895 to be exploited as secondary citizens for 50 years. Then the Chinese came back and oppressed and exploited us for another 50 years. In many ways the Chinese who came after the Japanese were far worse... You think China had it bad. At least you guys didn't have to be slaves.

1.Fact: China was defeated by Japan in a war and was FORCED to give Taiwan away in 1895 and let Japan ruled Taiwan for 50 years, and got it back after the defeat of Japan in WWWII. China were at the gunpoint of Japan and must be robbed of her land. You substitute the fact that China being forced with "China sold us out", which shows your tendency of distortion of historical facts, which further lead to the dismissal of your entire credibility.

2.In the same post, you first said Japan's ruling in Taiwan is one of the most benevolent and progressive colonial administrations in the entire world, then you forgot your previous claim and went on stating Taiwanese were secondary citizens exploited by Japan for 50 years. Benevolence can never be associated with discrimination. This is serious confusion in values.How can you call a dictating colonial reigning that treat people as sub humans to be exploited as benevolent is beyond me. You are not so bent on democracy as you try to appear.

3. You admit your vice president thank Japan for their colonial reigning. Then your current president visits USA and tries to assimilate Taiwan¡¯s independance to that of USA¡¯s. I¡¯m sorry to tell you that Americans don¡¯t thank British for their colonial reigning. This shows the fact that you Taiwanese are double faced people without principle and are not trustworthy.

4. What you didn¡¯t mention is Japanese practiced culture extinction in Taiwan. Forbidding Taiwanese to speak and learn Chinese, banned Chinese clothes, taught them only Japanese and how to hate Chinese culture. You claim that you thank Japanese for their education standards. You say that many old people who lived through that period is still tremendously respectful to Japan. It shows you are influenced by Japan cultural extinction education and is biased to China. It further indicates a motive for Taiwanese¡¯ independence as some of they are raised and taught to hate China.

All your arguments are typical self-rationalizations prevalent in Taiwan. The Taiwanese can spread whatever bulls*it they cook up with their crooked mind, but don¡¯t be so sure that your audience is so easy to fool every time you pull your tricks. In just this thread you showed hypocrisy, lies, distortion of history, confusion in human values, self cheating, double facing, flattery for support to perpetrate your hate against Chinese and promote demonization to China, with a smirk on your lips that you expect to get away with it, as you know the Americans are not familiar with Taiwan history. Sorry, you got caught. However, I thank you for present a live and vivid case of how there is forces out there trying to demonize China. For this I welcome you as much as possible, for the more you talk, the more fallacies and despicable qualities you show as perpetrators against Chinese. For you self improvement, in Lincoln¡¯s words:

You can cheat all people at a time, you can cheat one man all the time, but you can¡¯t cheat all the people all the time.

And for the third time, in all honesty and at the risk of not appearing nice. You, Lil, are not my friend.

LIAR.

[Lil]

i'm not going to respond to this, even though i can fight you for days and find all the evidence you need (good god, this "*****" you speak off is what i majored in a somewhat well-known university in massachusetts, where i spend every day living next to the Yenching Library...).

but let's just let this topic die. other readers simply aren't interested. for courtesy's sake. alright?

cheers!
Lil

[michecon]

So, Lil, why do you give up Economics? I remember you were economist in training?

[HayesStreet]

Originally posted by panda The following are excerpts from Microsoft Encarta 99¡¯s Taiwan history section. In 1644 the Manchus of northeastern China defeated the Ming dynasty and established the Qing dynasty. Meanwhile, a group of Ming followers led by Cheng Ch¡¯eng-kung, known in the West as Koxinga, drove the Dutch from Taiwan and occupied the island¡¯s southwestern portion. Cheng established a formal Chinese government, ruling Taiwan as a Ming enclave.

So what panda is really saying is that Taiwan should not be independent. It should be given back to the Dutch.

[Lil]

Originally posted by michecon So, Lil, why do you give up Economics? I remember you were economist in training?

Economics/East Asian Studies double major '94-'98

and in my spare time, ClutchCity addict! :D
man, i tell you, those were the glory years!
dream, horry, ET, OT, Elie, Glyde, the Chuckster...

kinda like the rise and fall of the roman empire though...

damn pippen...

[Panda]

Man, despite I have serious issues with you, I gotta admit that you have a way to relate to the Americans and Rockets fans.

Don't worry about the old glory days, Yao Ming is coming over and help bringing it back. If you can manage adding more "Chineseness" to yourself, I'm sure you'll enjoy the journey much better. I think You'll certainly like a Taiwanese NBA player, how long do you think you're gonna wait? Will there ever be a Taiwanese NBA player? or when will there be a Japanese player?
Questions like these are hard to answer, but I hope Yao can be a fine substitute. As long as you cheer for Yao Ming, you are helping China and the Rockets ya know. Oh well I hope I'm not asking too much.

See, after all there's things cool with being a Chinaman. :D

Lastly, I want to thank the admins and posters for this great sports site and their patience to bear with us the Chinese fans for our long long long posts.

[ScreamingRocketJet]

re copyright...

What's the difference between the west and asia anyway in reality? we all say they disrespect copyright etc etc, sell copied goods etc etc...which is true.

HOWEVER...in the west, everyone I know has CD burners and copies everything anyway. Everyone copies music via windows media onto their hard drives. Anyone here NOT copied a mate's cd / pc game at some time?

Thought not...

[michecon]

Originally posted by ScreamingRocketJet re copyright... What's the difference between the west and asia anyway in reality? we all say they disrespect copyright etc etc, sell copied goods etc etc...which is true. HOWEVER...in the west, everyone I know has CD burners and copies everything anyway. Everyone copies music via windows media onto their hard drives. Anyone here NOT copied a mate's cd / pc game at some time? Thought not...

What would do without sharesharing, would you fight?
Aih. To share you may feel guilty, buy you will pay, at least a bit. Perusing your harddrive on your computer, many years from now, would you be willing to trade all the guilty feelings, from this to that, for one chance, just one chance, to come back here, to tell music industries, that they may take out P2P, but they will never take our freedooom. ----------courtesy of Mel Gibson

[Roc Paint]

I think Bruce Lee said it best..