ClutchFans
ClutchFans
ClutchFans Latest:
Rockets honored Dwight agreement with agent in letting Parsons out of his contract


Go Back   ClutchFans > Basketball > Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Thoughts on the futility of the PNR offense this year
Tags:  basketball, chris paul, houston rockets, james harden, nba Tags
hotballa is online now Old 11-13-2012, 08:34 PM   #1
hotballa
Contributing Member
hotballa is James Harden -- racking up the pointshotballa is James Harden -- racking up the pointshotballa is James Harden -- racking up the pointshotballa is James Harden -- racking up the pointshotballa is James Harden -- racking up the pointshotballa is James Harden -- racking up the points
Since: Dec 2002
Posts: 11,364
Member: #10072
    Reply With Quote
I know it's early but the PNR offense just looks bad for long stretches this season. The main problem is that nobody respects our bigs to hit a spot up jumper or catch a pass and do something with it. As a result, everytime Lin or Harden runs the PNR, the defenders both converge on the handler because they are not afraid of Omer hitting a jumper or being able to catch the ball on the run. Our PFs can do it sometimes, but they're very inconsistent with their jump shots from what I've seen.

Until we get a big man that can hit a mid range jumper, the PNR will just be a self-setting trap for our offense. I don't care who you are, if you get doubled everytime on the PNR, you're going to wind up making a mistake sooner or later. At the very least, the offense gets screwed up and we have to go into ISO mode because there's no time on the clock to run another set play. Chris Paul could look bad in this offense IMO

__________________
Probably the dumbest statement I have seen in a while...

http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showpost.p...&postcount=761
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigmund View Post
Some women like to be beaten. Most women actually encourage men to beat them, even though they will never admit it.
 
Sponsored Link
BigMaloe is offline Old 11-13-2012, 08:39 PM   #2
BigMaloe
Contributing Member
BigMaloe is James Harden -- racking up the pointsBigMaloe is James Harden -- racking up the pointsBigMaloe is James Harden -- racking up the pointsBigMaloe is James Harden -- racking up the pointsBigMaloe is James Harden -- racking up the points
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 6,969
Member: #50111
    Reply With Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by hotballa View Post
I know it's early but the PNR offense just looks bad for long stretches this season. The main problem is that nobody respects our bigs to hit a spot up jumper or catch a pass and do something with it. As a result, everytime Lin or Harden runs the PNR, the defenders both converge on the handler because they are not afraid of Omer hitting a jumper or being able to catch the ball on the run. Our PFs can do it sometimes, but they're very inconsistent with their jump shots from what I've seen.

Until we get a big man that can hit a mid range jumper, the PNR will just be a self-setting trap for our offense. I don't care who you are, if you get doubled everytime on the PNR, you're going to wind up making a mistake sooner or later. At the very least, the offense gets screwed up and we have to go into ISO mode because there's no time on the clock to run another set play. Chris Paul could look bad in this offense IMO
+1... i agree, which is why everyome around here wants a stud big man...

__________________
Real Eyes Realize Real Lies
 
Carl Herrera is offline Old 11-13-2012, 08:40 PM   #3
Carl Herrera
Contributing Member
Carl Herrera is Hakeem Olajuwon -- reputation is pure goldCarl Herrera is Hakeem Olajuwon -- reputation is pure goldCarl Herrera is Hakeem Olajuwon -- reputation is pure goldCarl Herrera is Hakeem Olajuwon -- reputation is pure goldCarl Herrera is Hakeem Olajuwon -- reputation is pure goldCarl Herrera is Hakeem Olajuwon -- reputation is pure goldCarl Herrera is Hakeem Olajuwon -- reputation is pure goldCarl Herrera is Hakeem Olajuwon -- reputation is pure goldCarl Herrera is Hakeem Olajuwon -- reputation is pure goldCarl Herrera is Hakeem Olajuwon -- reputation is pure goldCarl Herrera is Hakeem Olajuwon -- reputation is pure gold
Since: Feb 2007
Posts: 31,609
Member: #22691
    Reply With Quote
Do you have numbers on the success rate of the team on pick'n roll? Synergy sports has them.

__________________
J.J. Watt gives a better effort on offense than James Harden does on defense.
 
nono is offline Old 11-13-2012, 08:41 PM   #4
nono
Member
nono is Jeremy Lin -- starting to get dangerously goodnono is Jeremy Lin -- starting to get dangerously good
Since: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,086
Member: #51885
    Reply With Quote
Asik can set the pick, but he has butter hands and also can't roll to the basket strongly. Maybe Asik will improve this part of his game. It is one reason why our offense consists of 4 people standing on the perimeter and Asik running around setting picks. Amongst all of the teams I've seen this season, we run one of the ugliest offenses. Like you said, no one respects Asik's offense and hence pick and roll doesn't really work with him.

We don't really have much of a choice at the moment though. We just don't have the players yet to do what we'd like to. I am sure Morey is going to go after a power forward who is a strong post player. Al Jefferson would be ideal. He is one of the best post players in the league, an excellent rebounder and his defensive shortcomings would be made up for by Asik. He is the perfect complement to Asik in my opinion.
 
charles_zed is offline Old 11-13-2012, 08:41 PM   #5
charles_zed
Member
charles_zed is Jeremy Lin -- starting to get dangerously goodcharles_zed is Jeremy Lin -- starting to get dangerously good
Since: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,218
Member: #51755
    Reply With Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by hotballa View Post
I know it's early but the PNR offense just looks bad for long stretches this season. The main problem is that nobody respects our bigs to hit a spot up jumper or catch a pass and do something with it. As a result, everytime Lin or Harden runs the PNR, the defenders both converge on the handler because they are not afraid of Omer hitting a jumper or being able to catch the ball on the run. Our PFs can do it sometimes, but they're very inconsistent with their jump shots from what I've seen.

Until we get a big man that can hit a mid range jumper, the PNR will just be a self-setting trap for our offense. I don't care who you are, if you get doubled everytime on the PNR, you're going to wind up making a mistake sooner or later. At the very least, the offense gets screwed up and we have to go into ISO mode because there's no time on the clock to run another set play. Chris Paul could look bad in this offense IMO
When they trap, Omer just needs to make the extra pass or take it to the rim. He's shown the ability to do it in the Miami game. Of course, not every front-court will be as diminutive nor every defense excessively helpful but it's not a complete waste. It was much, much more effective than Harden dribbling the air out of the ball.
 
hotballa is online now Old 11-13-2012, 08:43 PM   #6
hotballa
Contributing Member
hotballa is James Harden -- racking up the pointshotballa is James Harden -- racking up the pointshotballa is James Harden -- racking up the pointshotballa is James Harden -- racking up the pointshotballa is James Harden -- racking up the pointshotballa is James Harden -- racking up the points
Since: Dec 2002
Posts: 11,364
Member: #10072
    Reply With Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl Herrera View Post
Do you have numbers on the success rate of the team on pick'n roll? Synergy sports has them.
nope, I honestly didn't even know they tracked that nowadays It's just based on the games I've watched. It just seems like the smart teams ignore the pick and double up on the handler. I see it working almost everytime. Almost always results in a bad pass or rushed shot.

__________________
Probably the dumbest statement I have seen in a while...

http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showpost.p...&postcount=761
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigmund View Post
Some women like to be beaten. Most women actually encourage men to beat them, even though they will never admit it.
 
D-rock is offline Old 11-13-2012, 08:44 PM   #7
D-rock
Member
D-rock is Jeremy Lin -- starting to get dangerously goodD-rock is Jeremy Lin -- starting to get dangerously good
Since: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,494
Member: #18806
    Reply With Quote
Rockets need to trade for Blake Griffin.
 
hotballa is online now Old 11-13-2012, 08:45 PM   #8
hotballa
Contributing Member
hotballa is James Harden -- racking up the pointshotballa is James Harden -- racking up the pointshotballa is James Harden -- racking up the pointshotballa is James Harden -- racking up the pointshotballa is James Harden -- racking up the pointshotballa is James Harden -- racking up the points
Since: Dec 2002
Posts: 11,364
Member: #10072
    Reply With Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by hotballa View Post
nope, I honestly didn't even know they tracked that nowadays It's just based on the games I've watched. It just seems like the smart teams ignore the pick and double up on the handler. I see it working almost everytime. Almost always results in a bad pass or rushed shot.
Just to follow up on this post. Maybe we should stop setting the pick so high and move it closer to the paint when teams are playing man.

__________________
Probably the dumbest statement I have seen in a while...

http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showpost.p...&postcount=761
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigmund View Post
Some women like to be beaten. Most women actually encourage men to beat them, even though they will never admit it.
 
AbrahamLincoln is offline Old 11-13-2012, 08:48 PM   #9
AbrahamLincoln
Member
AbrahamLincoln is Terrence Jones -- on a good road but it's early
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 363
Member: #51026
    Reply With Quote
I still feel like we will make a play for Pau. Either that or we need to find someone besides Delfino to make teams pay on the perimeter. As far as finding a more offensive big goes, It's early but Ive liked what I've seen out of Greg Smith and I think he would be a more traditional 4 and could create more problems in the post than Patterson does. You won't see him jacking up threes and he is a good rebounder.
 
AbrahamLincoln is offline Old 11-13-2012, 08:50 PM   #10
AbrahamLincoln
Member
AbrahamLincoln is Terrence Jones -- on a good road but it's early
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 363
Member: #51026
    Reply With Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by hotballa View Post
Just to follow up on this post. Maybe we should stop setting the pick so high and move it closer to the paint when teams are playing man.
Also, we seem slow to initiate the pnr and teams are able to get set defensively. It would be great to see us start our offense earlier. Lin and Harden always seem to slowly set up the pnr and then get swatted or turn the ball over.
 
jocar is offline Old 11-13-2012, 09:15 PM   #11
jocar
Member
jocar is Yao Ming -- damn good but not quite Hakeemjocar is Yao Ming -- damn good but not quite Hakeemjocar is Yao Ming -- damn good but not quite Hakeemjocar is Yao Ming -- damn good but not quite Hakeemjocar is Yao Ming -- damn good but not quite Hakeemjocar is Yao Ming -- damn good but not quite Hakeemjocar is Yao Ming -- damn good but not quite Hakeemjocar is Yao Ming -- damn good but not quite Hakeemjocar is Yao Ming -- damn good but not quite Hakeemjocar is Yao Ming -- damn good but not quite Hakeemjocar is Yao Ming -- damn good but not quite Hakeem
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,869
Member: #27834
    Reply With Quote
Any of the 3 rooks will be effective in pnrs. Particularly DMo whose height will give him an edge on the receiving end. They all have the bodies, quickness and range for it to be successful at it. We either wait till they're ready or bring someone in, b/c Asik's plate is already full and PPat is still semi allergic to paint.

It sucks watching Lin run the pnr and get stuck at a dead-end with 3-4 jerseys collapsing in on him every time. I'm sure the front office sees this, but they are thinking long term dynasty and won't waste cap space by just sticking a temporary band-aid on it. Better for the team, but painful for us
 
roxxy is offline Old 11-13-2012, 09:21 PM   #12
roxxy
Member
roxxy is Omer Asik -- working the boardsroxxy is Omer Asik -- working the boardsroxxy is Omer Asik -- working the boardsroxxy is Omer Asik -- working the boards
Since: Jul 2012
Posts: 5,120
Member: #51508
    Reply With Quote
I am really hoping terrence sees a few more minutes. He is the only player who set a pick & rolled hard to the rim. It was in pre-season but it still happened hoping he can bring it again. Just once I want to see somebody set a proper pick & roll hard to the rim is that to much to ask??!

__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by vlaurelio View Post
either that or Harden is being vastly underrated by a so called Rockets fan who supposedly watched majority of the Rockets games last season where Harden night in and night out carry the Rockets offense and torch whatever defense the opposing team throws at him
Quote:
Originally Posted by vlaurelio View Post
stats are only credible if they point to jlin as the better player
Stats: Advanced Stats Primer | Basketball-Reference | Hoop Data | Team Rankings | NBA WOWY! | NBA.com (Advanced) | Vorped | Popcorn Machine | NBA Graphs
 
hotballa is online now Old 11-13-2012, 09:21 PM   #13
hotballa
Contributing Member
hotballa is James Harden -- racking up the pointshotballa is James Harden -- racking up the pointshotballa is James Harden -- racking up the pointshotballa is James Harden -- racking up the pointshotballa is James Harden -- racking up the pointshotballa is James Harden -- racking up the points
Since: Dec 2002
Posts: 11,364
Member: #10072
    Reply With Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by jocar View Post
Any of the 3 rooks will be effective in pnrs. Particularly DMo whose height will give him an edge on the receiving end. They all have the bodies, quickness and range for it to be successful at it. We either wait till they're ready or bring someone in, b/c Asik's plate is already full and PPat is still semi allergic to paint.

It sucks watching Lin run the pnr and get stuck at a dead-end with 3-4 jerseys collapsing in on him every time. I'm sure the front office sees this, but they are thinking long term dynasty and won't waste cap space by just sticking a temporary band-aid on it. Better for the team, but painful for us
If Asik didn't have hands of stone, he would more than suffice for the PNR in most spots. Sadly, soft hands is just not something that can be taught IMO. Having him set the pick is bad coaching because it does not put Omer in a position to succeed.

__________________
Probably the dumbest statement I have seen in a while...

http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showpost.p...&postcount=761
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigmund View Post
Some women like to be beaten. Most women actually encourage men to beat them, even though they will never admit it.
 
torocan is offline Old 11-13-2012, 09:49 PM   #14
torocan
Member
torocan is Calvin Murphy -- loud and loved heretorocan is Calvin Murphy -- loud and loved heretorocan is Calvin Murphy -- loud and loved heretorocan is Calvin Murphy -- loud and loved heretorocan is Calvin Murphy -- loud and loved heretorocan is Calvin Murphy -- loud and loved heretorocan is Calvin Murphy -- loud and loved heretorocan is Calvin Murphy -- loud and loved here
Since: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,041
Member: #52386
    Reply With Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by hotballa View Post
nope, I honestly didn't even know they tracked that nowadays It's just based on the games I've watched. It just seems like the smart teams ignore the pick and double up on the handler. I see it working almost everytime. Almost always results in a bad pass or rushed shot.
Ask and ye shall recieve

James Harden

2011/12
33% pick and roll plays, 0.988 ppp
12.7% isolation plays, 1.032 ppp (#1 in NBA)

2012/13
28% pick and roll plays, 0.92 ppp
24% isolation plays, 0.74 ppp

Jeremy Lin

2011/12
42.5% pick and roll plays, 0.75 ppp
12.5% isolation plays, 1.022 ppp (#2 in NBA)

2012/13
24% pick and roll plays, 0.74 ppp
14% isolation plays, insufficient plays for sample

Houston Rockets 2012/13
9.6% isolation
14% pick and roll ball handler
5.7% pick and roll Roll man
2.2% off screens
14.3% transition
4% post ups
8.2% cut
26.3% spot up

Translation ... Harden's PnR support is down somewhat, Lin's PnR support is down MASSIVELY. Harden's being forced to ISO at almost double the rate, and Lin is doing ISO's about 15% more often.

We're running VERY few screens and doing ALOT of spot up shooting.

Both Harden AND Lin's efficiency is significantly to WAY down in PnR and Isolation. PnR and Isolation declines tend to point to insufficiencies in both PnR support (rolling big man and offensive schemes) as well as spacing issues (floor too packed).

In conclusion...

Harden is being used somewhat ineffectively.
Lin is being used VERY ineffectively.
 
dantian is offline Old 11-13-2012, 10:21 PM   #15
dantian
Member
dantian is Terrence Jones -- on a good road but it's early
Since: Jul 2012
Posts: 357
Member: #51817
    Reply With Quote
Asik is a Noah, Varajao, Chandler type of PnR bigman. Good to great picks but cannot do much with the ball unless close under basket. Amare if healthy would make this team emulate what Suns were under DA back then, with better PG defense.
 
<3myrockets is offline Old 11-13-2012, 10:47 PM   #16
<3myrockets
Contributing Member
<3myrockets is Terrence Jones -- on a good road but it's early
Since: Oct 2008
Posts: 729
Member: #34016
    Reply With Quote
i agree it would help a ton if we had a mid range big but in the meantime it looks like we've been punishing that double team by having asik roll hard toward the basket and have someone flash the baseline when the help d comes in. and you're right it makes sense to run it closer to the arc because of that mid range limitation.
 
Hui is offline Old 11-14-2012, 01:06 AM   #17
Hui
Member
Hui is Terrence Jones -- on a good road but it's early
Since: Nov 2009
Posts: 151
Member: #43917
    Reply With Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by hotballa View Post
I know it's early but the PNR offense just looks bad for long stretches this season. The main problem is that nobody respects our bigs to hit a spot up jumper or catch a pass and do something with it. As a result, everytime Lin or Harden runs the PNR, the defenders both converge on the handler because they are not afraid of Omer hitting a jumper or being able to catch the ball on the run. Our PFs can do it sometimes, but they're very inconsistent with their jump shots from what I've seen.

Until we get a big man that can hit a mid range jumper, the PNR will just be a self-setting trap for our offense. I don't care who you are, if you get doubled everytime on the PNR, you're going to wind up making a mistake sooner or later. At the very least, the offense gets screwed up and we have to go into ISO mode because there's no time on the clock to run another set play. Chris Paul could look bad in this offense IMO
Man I miss Schola
 
HardLin is offline Old 11-14-2012, 01:22 AM   #18
HardLin
Member
HardLin is Terrence Jones -- on a good road but it's early
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 253
Member: #52664
    Reply With Quote
Pick and Roll works well for both Lin and Harden.

Problem is we don't have big men that set picks(well) and can roll(well).

Asik sets mediocre picks. Most of the time the screens he sets do not hinder the ball handlers defender at all, sometimes resulting in a double team of the ball handler. Once in a while he sets a devastating pick, usually resulting in an easy bucket for the ball handler.

Asik also has a problem being a roll target because he can't finish well.

Asik is improving though, so I expect Lin and Hardens points & assists to go up as the season progresses. Other than Asik, only Aldrich seems to set passable picks. The rest of the bigs are still a work in progress.
 
torocan is offline Old 11-14-2012, 02:10 AM   #19
torocan
Member
torocan is Calvin Murphy -- loud and loved heretorocan is Calvin Murphy -- loud and loved heretorocan is Calvin Murphy -- loud and loved heretorocan is Calvin Murphy -- loud and loved heretorocan is Calvin Murphy -- loud and loved heretorocan is Calvin Murphy -- loud and loved heretorocan is Calvin Murphy -- loud and loved heretorocan is Calvin Murphy -- loud and loved here
Since: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,041
Member: #52386
    Reply With Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by HardLin View Post
Pick and Roll works well for both Lin and Harden.

Problem is we don't have big men that set picks(well) and can roll(well).

Asik sets mediocre picks. Most of the time the screens he sets do not hinder the ball handlers defender at all, sometimes resulting in a double team of the ball handler. Once in a while he sets a devastating pick, usually resulting in an easy bucket for the ball handler.

Asik also has a problem being a roll target because he can't finish well.

Asik is improving though, so I expect Lin and Hardens points & assists to go up as the season progresses. Other than Asik, only Aldrich seems to set passable picks. The rest of the bigs are still a work in progress.
One would hope there's improvement, but it's a long way to go.

Just pull up some Perkin or Chandler pick and roll highlights and compare them to the picks we set, and you realize how woefully lacking we are in terms of pick setting big men.

This doesn't even factor in the numerous OTHER players on teams that set Picks in addition to the Big Men.

It's not uncommon for teams to have Multiple players capable of setting picks and screens so you end up with double or even triple picks and screens to break their ball handlers free of the most tenacious Defenses.

Ideally you want to see Asik, Patterson and Parsons all moving to set picks, back picks, and screens in layered or staggered formations to not only break Harden and Lin free, but to free shooters and cutters as well.

We're a VERY long way from having effective PnR and screening.

__________________
The problem with the "eye test" is most of us are half blind.

http://wagesofwins.com/2012/03/22/yo...games-so-what/
 
mike_lu is offline Old 11-14-2012, 06:47 AM   #20
mike_lu
Member
mike_lu is Omer Asik -- working the boardsmike_lu is Omer Asik -- working the boardsmike_lu is Omer Asik -- working the boardsmike_lu is Omer Asik -- working the boards
Since: Feb 2006
Posts: 2,159
Member: #16422
    Reply With Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by HardLin View Post
Pick and Roll works well for both Lin and Harden.

Problem is we don't have big men that set picks(well) and can roll(well).

Asik sets mediocre picks. Most of the time the screens he sets do not hinder the ball handlers defender at all, sometimes resulting in a double team of the ball handler. Once in a while he sets a devastating pick, usually resulting in an easy bucket for the ball handler.

Asik also has a problem being a roll target because he can't finish well.

Asik is improving though, so I expect Lin and Hardens points & assists to go up as the season progresses. Other than Asik, only Aldrich seems to set passable picks. The rest of the bigs are still a work in progress.
Greg Smith actually showed signs of being a capable PnR screener. Has less size than Asik, and not a Pick-n-Pop threat, but he actually rolls to the basket well and can score on dunk, lay-ins or short hooks.

But it's been limited minutes.
 

Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Offense and Defense rankings this year vs. last year TheFreak Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves 13 04-27-2012 11:16 PM
The offense should not run through Yao Ming next year wizkid83 Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves 136 04-13-2010 11:57 AM
nets win 8th game of year inch closer to futility record Rocket94-95 NBA Dish 22 03-27-2010 01:19 AM
Next Year - Better Offense or Better Defense? room4rentsf Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves 46 05-08-2007 11:55 AM
My Roster for this year...thoughts? DaDakota Fantasy Sports 13 09-05-2003 02:16 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:21 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.