Should Penn State get the Death Penalty?

[DonnyMost]

Originally Posted by rhadamanthus Bull****. It was done by a handful of men...specifically because it was the football program. It's the entire reason this thing happened. Kill it.

Football isn't why it happened, sh***y people in positions of power who happened to like football is why it happened.

Killing the program is treating the symptom instead of the disease. It harms all the wrong people who had nothing to do with it.

It's using a sledgehammer when all you need is a scalpel.

[leroy]

Typically when major infractions happen, it actually involves the student-athletes. Either they're taking improper benefits or the coaches are breaking some rule (or rules) in recruiting them, etc. In this case, not one player had anything to do with this. To essentially ruin their college careers because of the horrid actions of their leaders would, in my opinion, be very unfair.

Paterno is dead. Sandusky is in prison and will likely die there. The others are under criminal investigation and have been fired from their jobs. Tear down the statue and remove his name from the library. Make sure that any coaches and administrators that had anything to do with the football program during those years are removed. Don't destroy the college experience for students that did nothing wrong.

[rhadamanthus]

Originally Posted by DonnyMost Football isn't why it happened, sh***y people in positions of power who happened to like football is why it happened.

It would have never happened anywhere but the football program. Kill it.

Killing the program is treating the symptom instead of the disease.

Backwards, my friend. The disease is the undue influence the football program had over the university and the people in power. Kill it.

[Rokkit]

if this isn't worthy of the death penalty there's not much point in having it

[justtxyank]

I'm with Rhad. The level of disgust involved in this case is higher than any I've ever heard of.

Kill it.

[DonnyMost]

Originally Posted by rhadamanthus It would have never happened anywhere but the football program. Kill it.

The fact that the football program was the only place it could have happened is not justification enough to kill it (football is too popular, so it must die!). It's merely justification to get rid of the people who allowed it to happen, which has already been done.

Originally Posted by rhadamanthus Backwards, my friend. The disease is the undue influence the football program had over the university and the people in power. Kill it.

Nope. The disease is sh***y people in positions of power.

You're assigning blame for this to football (as if football somehow magically causes people to commit crimes), instead of the people and their actions/inactions who actually had something to do with it, which is overreaching by a mile. You're not fixing anything by killing football, only punishing everybody who had nothing to do with it. You can say you're setting an example and trying to scare other programs, but that's a flimsy justification at best.

[rhadamanthus]

Originally Posted by DonnyMost Nope. The disease is sh***y people in positions of power.

Nope. Those ****ty people survived because they were part of the football program. You honestly think this would have been "swept under the rug" if it had occurred in the economics department?

The risk of damaging the football program, caused these people to be ****ty. Maybe they were inherently ****ty too, but it's the program (the money, the publicity, the prestige) that rationalized it in this case, regardless.

Kill it.

[justtxyank]

Originally Posted by rhadamanthus Nope. Those ****ty people survived because they were part of the football program. You honestly think this would have been "swept under the rug" if it had occurred in the economics department? The risk of damaging the football program, caused these people to be ****ty. Maybe they were inherently ****ty too, but it's the program (the money, the publicity, the prestige) that rationalized it in this case, regardless. Kill it.

Yeah, I'm with Rhad. This isn't just about punishing Penn State either.

There is no reason to think that Joe Paterno was an otherwise crappy human being. There is every reason to believe that as part of a culture of football at Penn State where the institution, its survival and its finances were put above all else, he sold his soul.

This is similar to military dictatorships. Getting rid of the generals at the top doesn't change the fact that the institution lives on. Kill it.

[SamFisher]

Originally Posted by rocketfan83 No terrible situation but it was just the actions of a handful of men. Death penalty would cripple the program and school forever.... I was like 5 when the SMU scandal hit but I'm sure I would have been against that too..

The school and the program should be crippled forever. An institution that cosnciously decides to enable/ignore serial child rape isntead of harming the golden goose is one that needs some time in the penalty box to put it mildly.

[DonnyMost]

Originally Posted by rhadamanthus Nope. Those ****ty people survived because they were part of the football program. The risk of damaging the football program, caused these people to be ****ty. Maybe they were inherently ****ty too, but it's the program (the money, the publicity, the prestige) that rationalized it in this case, regardless.

Nope. Those sh***y people survived because the people in power were sh***y. Football is a rose by any other name in this case. UK basketball probably has a lot of influence at the top of its program well, doesn't mean you kill the whole thing, it means you make sure good people are running things. And if they aren't being good, you kick them the hell out. Great power, great responsibility.

Bottom line is this; killing the program will not fix anything and will harm far, FAR more people who had nothing to do with it. We already found this out with SMU, we don't need to go through it all over again.

[rhadamanthus]

Donny: I disagree, sorry.

Kill it.

[DonnyMost]

Originally Posted by rhadamanthus Donny: I disagree, sorry. Kill it.

The only way I could agree with you is if the level of knowledge people had about these crimes was so wide-spread that, in effect, firing everybody associated with it would be equivalent to the DP.

Everybody has been on board with completely cleaning house in the administration and athletic department from day 1. It seems like going further and punishing the students, athletes, and fans/alumni is unnecessary.

The stigma of this scandal will haunt PSU forever, either way. I'm not sure what good administering crippling punishments on the academic and athletic community that had nothing to do with it would accomplish.

(P.S. Deep down, I do want to say "KILL IT". Because this **** is an outrage to me... but the more rational side of me is looking for solutions, not retribution.)

[SamFisher]

Originally Posted by DonnyMost Football isn't why it happened, sh***y people in positions of power who happened to like football is why it happened. Killing the program is treating the symptom instead of the disease. It harms all the wrong people who had nothing to do with it. It's using a sledgehammer when all you need is a scalpel.

Football is exactly why it happened.

Sometime in the 70's or 80's, football became bigger than the university. It's how you have a senile Paterno refusing to resign even though his ostensible bosses tried to get him to step down in 2003.

THe imbalance of power is what called the "responsible adults" within both the football program, and its university administrration subsidiary to decide that child rape was less important than the football program's image.

Bad decision - It seems to me that the only way to salvage the universities core mission is to excise its football overlord.

[SamFisher]

Originally Posted by BigBird If this happens we're not talking about the loss of a couple hundred scholarships for athletes, we're talking about the loss of tens of thousands of students and faculty and essentially the elimination of Penn State as a university. That's scary.

LOL, if what you're telling me is that the university is such a joke now that it has effectively become the adjunct of what's effectively a minor-league unpaid-labor football team and that it can't survive on its own, I'm not really sure what the crying is all about. Good riddance, PSU.

Somehow I doubt that's actually case though.

[DonnyMost]

Originally Posted by SamFisher Football is exactly why it happened.

So... football causes people to cover up child-rape?

Or... does having no courage, bad morals, etc. cause people to cover up child-rape?

Football isn't why... that's like saying money causes people to commit theft... when it's the love of money/greed that does. Doesn't mean we should ban money.

There's nothing inherently evil or sinister about football. There's something wrong with giving people too much power, though. Especially people with morals like the ones at PSU.

So you fire everybody and start over (which, I assume, is what is going on). You don't stop playing football. That only harms people who had nothing to do with it.

Can somebody tell me what the DP will accomplish that firing/jailing all these bastards hasn't?

[KingCheetah]

A decade plus Penn State coverup that allowed Sandusky to rape children on campus and many high level officials knew about it... kill it.

What were these people thinking when they see Sandusky around campus with another child knowing that he is raping the kid!? That is as ****ed up as it gets.

[SamFisher]

Originally Posted by DonnyMost So... football causes people to cover up child-rape? Or... does having no courage, bad morals, etc. cause people to cover up child-rape? t?

You're approaching giddyup levels of obtuseness. No, I'm not saying you should blame it on an inanimate object. Or that other factors aren't involved. That's irrelevant to the fact that the Penn State football program was a "but for" cause of these incidents.

In this instance, protection of the football program (which obviously dominated the university) was the clear motivation for the behavior of all of the so-called responsible adults. Change the actors and locations and divorce the football program from the equation, and I have no doubt they act differently - unless you're suggesting that Paterno, mcqueary, et al would just ignore & actively cover up any child rape they saw regardless of the circumstance.

Accordingly, the football program is a "but for" cause for both the incident and its cover-up (which in this case probably resulted in subsequent serial child rape...cool). It's not even a close question.

You can generate a very easy rule of thumb for this. I think every university prsident should sit down with its football program and say "is this program so important that if it was enabling serial child rape, I'd let the rape continue and do nothing rather than risk harm to the program?"

If the answer is yes, then you should shut it down.

[DonnyMost]

Originally Posted by SamFisher You can generate a very easy rule of thumb for this. I think every university prsident should sit down with its football program and say "is this program so important that if it was enabling serial child rape, I'd let the rape continue and do nothing rather than risk harm to the program?" If the answer is yes, then you should fire that University President.

We have different methods, but we're after the same goal.

Once again, I fail to see how stopping playing the sport accomplishes anything that firing/jailing the individuals involved does not, other than to punish hundreds (if not thousands) of people who are completely innocent.

BTW, I'm not being obtuse (call me giddyup again and we're going to fist fight FFB style in the alley behind a karaoke), I'm taking you at your word. Obviously, I needed you to clarify your position, and you did. So thanks.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you suggesting that, because of the power of the football program at PSU, if you removed all of the actors therein and replaced them with different people, we'd end up with the exact same result (i.e. crime, coverup, etc.)? If that is the case, then it's the heart of our disagreement.

And even if that was the case, would a temporary ban on football actually fix this problem? Seems to me that if that is the situation, they should have their program revoked indefinitely. Although I don't believe that to be the case.

[rhadamanthus]

Very good Sam, very good.

[ima_drummer2k]

Originally Posted by DonnyMost So... football causes people to cover up child-rape?

Penn State football caused people to cover up child-rape. That's exactly what happened here.

Kill it.

Originally Posted by SamFisher LOL, if what you're telling me is that the university is such a joke now that it has effectively become the adjunct of what's effectively a minor-league unpaid-labor football team and that it can't survive on its own, I'm not really sure what the crying is all about. Good riddance, PSU.

Yeah, if the university itself can't survive without football, it probably doesn't deserve to survive anyway.