"Moderate Indonesia": Two Evangelists beaten and arrested

[Honey Bear]

Originally Posted by Major How do you propose to do this? You're more likely to eradicate poverty than religion - at least there's a theoretical method for doing that.

Show them the rewards a western education reaps... and the misery of their current condition. Basically, bombard them with reality through the mass media to lighten the weight of a religious affiliation on your shoulders. Let them use religion as as supplement - not a complete diet. Otherwise you have too many illiterate fanatics like Mathloom with a ton of energy going in the wrong direction, looking for scapegoats.

Naturally this requires government compliance, and in "republics" the so called government is elected by the people. Democracy, in the current state of ignorance, just isn't an option. The rapid modernization of Malaysia under Mahatir Mohammed is the best example of what a country is capable of under a strict authoritative regime that doesn't emphasize religion, but rather capitalism.

During Mahathir's tenure as Prime Minister, Malaysia experienced rapid modernisation and economic growth, and his government initiated a series of bold infrastructure projects. He was a dominant political figure, winning five consecutive general elections and seeing off all of his rivals for the leadership of UMNO. However, his accumulation of power came at the expense of the independence of the judiciary and the traditional powers and privileges of Malaysia's royalty. He also deployed the controversial Internal Security Act to detain activists, non-mainstream religious figures, and political opponents including his sacked deputy, Anwar Ibrahim. Mahathir's record of curbing civil liberties and his antagonism to western diplomatic interests and economic policy made his relationships with the likes of the US, Britain and Australia difficult.

Poverty isn't going away... anytime soon.

[AroundTheWorld]

Originally Posted by Hydhypedplaya You mean an OpEd from the NYT? Apparently you don't know what objectivity means. Not to mention the story you posted initially is not the same as the one you just posted. Oh well, keep posting opinion pieces and call them "news".

You are clutching at straws, front desk jerk.

Who ****ing cares if it is the exact same story - it deals with the same phenomenon.

[Apps]

In today's news a number of male humans attacked a number of other male humans with a believed involvement of female humans as well. The attacks are believed to have been caused by an intrinsic immaturity and ignorance common amongst all humans, exacerbated by unrealized ideals and unrealistic expectations of what the modern world should be and is.

On the sideline, a number of self-proclaimed objective observers then proceeded to analyze the situation with their limited knowledge of the variables in play, and arrived to a hasty conclusion that mostly revolved around the superficial factors of religion, geography, and race, largely ignoring the fact that the variables, whatever they are/were to their full extent, act as nothing more than symbols of a larger phenomenon of behavior unique to the human species.

In tomorrow's news, more of the same.

[Hydhypedplaya]

Originally Posted by AroundTheWorld You are clutching at straws, front desk jerk. Who ****ing cares if it is the exact same story - it deals with the same phenomenon.

Just those of us who care about objectivity.

I could easily put up three different websites for about four bucks, and then write a lame article talking about how some closet Nazi on a Rockets forum is going around killing Muslims. If I reference each other site, does that make it true?

Idiot.

[trustme]

Originally Posted by Hydhypedplaya Just those of us who care about objectivity. I could easily put up three different websites for about four bucks, and then write a lame article talking about how some closet Nazi on a Rockets forum is going around killing Muslims. If I reference each other site, does that make it true? Idiot.

Lol that dude seriously is a copy boy at a law firm.

[arno_ed]

A very sad story.

That being said, I really do not have a a positive view on evangelists. They should not try to persuade people to join their religion.

But beating and arresting them is a bit much
.

[Mathloom]

Originally Posted by arno_ed A very sad story. That being said, I really do not have a a positive view on evangelists. They should not try to persuade people to join their religion. But beating and arresting them is a bit much .

I don't mind them persuading people to join their ideology, but I strongly oppose any ideology-spreaders targetting the populations which have the least access to education, information, shelter, food, hope, etc. while using a barrage of information, emotional speech and incentives. IMO this is a predatory exercise and very unethical.

There is an ethical way to do this, but this is not it. It is clear from their actions that the goal is to find those people who have the least chance of challenging them.

Obviously, not all such people work in this way. I'm speaking specifically about those who DO go about it in this way.

[Kim]

Originally Posted by Hydhypedplaya Yeah, let's all trust a blog post that doesn't reference any actual news article of what happened. Or we can ask ATW why he hasn't moved to Indonesia to improve the living conditions for those persecuted there. After all, his concern for them is what he's really trying to prove here. Perhaps he believes that 'informing' a forum of basketball fans will help those persecuted people of Indonesia.

I think SJC goes overboard at times, but this retort makes no sense. Why would he move to an area that he would argue is dominated by violent religious zealots? I don't think he's showing concern for the punished as much as trying to provide daily warrant to his assertion that Islam is a violent religion in practice. I don't read too much in this poo-flinging forum, but I don't think SJC has claimed to be advocating for the persecuted.

[Hydhypedplaya]

Originally Posted by Kim I think SJC goes overboard at times, but this retort makes no sense. Why would he move to an area that he would argue is dominated by violent religious zealots? I don't think he's showing concern for the punished as much as trying to provide daily warrant to his assertion that Islam is a violent religion in practice. I don't read too much in this poo-flinging forum, but I don't think SJC has claimed to be advocating for the persecuted.

It's a mockery of his asinine post here:

http://bbs.clutchfans.com/showpost.p...&postcount=116

[AroundTheWorld]

It's always the same, when fanatical Islamist Hydhypedplaya (aka front desk jerk) has no argument to counter the evidence, he tries to attack the source and the messenger.

[R0ckets03]

I seriously don't understand whats there to debate regarding this thread.

ATW/DD and Adeel/Mathloom should just play 2 on 2 basketball and the losers promise to stop posting in this forum for a year.

[IzakDavid13]

Originally Posted by Mathloom I don't mind them persuading people to join their ideology, but I strongly oppose any ideology-spreaders targetting the populations which have the least access to education, information, shelter, food, hope, etc. while using a barrage of information, emotional speech and incentives. IMO this is a predatory exercise and very unethical. There is an ethical way to do this, but this is not it. It is clear from their actions that the goal is to find those people who have the least chance of challenging them. Obviously, not all such people work in this way. I'm speaking specifically about those who DO go about it in this way.

I preached the gospel in Taiwan, China and Solomon Is. Some of us evangelists aren't in it for the money, fame or glory. Not all of us subscribe to the 'Best Life Now' prosperity doctrine.
In my church fellowship, we pray for the sick, give free English lessons, help to open up employment opportunities and teach on living sober lives...mostly out of our own pockets.

Just saying.

[Mathloom]

Originally Posted by R0ckets03 I seriously don't understand whats there to debate regarding this thread. ATW/DD and Adeel/Mathloom should just play 2 on 2 basketball and the losers promise to stop posting in this forum for a year.

Page 1..

Originally Posted by Mathloom ...the topic is uncontroversial. They shouldn't have been beaten, and the perpetrators should face justice - no one disagrees. But the inference created by the thread title sparks a retarded comparative debate...

[AroundTheWorld]

The point is that even in supposedly "moderate" Muslim nations, the totalitarian and intolerant nature of some elements of Islam rears its ugly head. It's in its DNA that it is intolerant, because it is so all-encompassing.

[adeelsiddiqui]

Originally Posted by R0ckets03 I seriously don't understand whats there to debate regarding this thread. ATW/DD and Adeel/Mathloom should just play 2 on 2 basketball and the losers promise to stop posting in this forum for a year.

Ill take that challenge. lol.

[adeelsiddiqui]

Originally Posted by AroundTheWorld The point is that even in supposedly "moderate" Muslim nations, the totalitarian and intolerant nature of some elements of Islam rears its ugly head. It's in its DNA that it is intolerant, because it is so all-encompassing.

Translation: One or two bad apples make the whole country/religion/race look bad and ATW stereotypes everyone from that group as one evil nutjob entity.

[LosPollosHermanos]

indonesia is probably one of the most peaceful contries out there, they have no radicalization.

[AroundTheWorld]

Originally Posted by True Beaner indonesia is probably one of the most peaceful contries out there, they have no radicalization.

Riiiiiight.

http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Centr...ice-24688.html

Central Java: Islamic extremists attack sanctuary of the Virgin Mary, repelled by police



Jakarta (AsiaNews) - Tensions remain high in central Java, where a crowd of a thousand Islamic extremists have targeted a shrine to the Virgin Mary: For security reasons, yesterday the authorities suspended the programmed church service, while dozens of policemen and soldiers guarding the place of Christian worship, fearing further - possible - violence. According to the protesters, incited by Muslim extremists, the building has no building permit required by law (the infamous IMB) and, over time, from "simple house of prayer" it has become a real church. The faithful respond that "in more than 40 years" there has never been an incident of sectarian nature.

After the three Christian churches - two Catholic and one Protestant - were forcibly closed in Java in recent days (see AsiaNews 07/05/12 Extremist threats in Aceh: authorities close three churches), the attention of Indonesian Islamic extremists has now shifted to the shrine of Lady Mary in Sengon Kerep, Sampang sub-district in Gedangsari in Gunung Kidul regency in Yogyakarta (Central Java province). Sunday, May 6th a mob of a thousand fanatics tried to seal off the building, but the intervention of soldiers and police foiled the attack.

The full name of the shrine of the Virgin Mary (pictured) is Taman Maria Giri Wning Sengon Kerep and in local language, it means "The garden of the silence of Mary Sengon Kerep". Over the past three years the place of worship has undergone a major restoration work, and has always attracted a huge crowd of believers with one purpose: prayer.

Among other things, the sanctuary belongs to the Wedi parish in the district of Klaten, which is famous for the contribution it has made over the years to the Indonesian church and, more particularly, the Archdiocese of Semarang. There are hundreds (if not thousands) of priests, nuns, men religious from the area, supported with passion and devotion by the faithful. Even two bishops were born in the parish of Wedi. This is why there is special devotion and attention to the Marian shrine and the Catholic community will continue to be vigilant to preserve its integrity. In a message to the faithful Msgr. Johannes Pujasumarta Pr, Archbishop of Semarang, called for calm and for faithful not to give in to provocation: "Do not show or respond with violence - said the prelate - even if the tension continues to grow."

[AroundTheWorld]

No radicalization? Just look at the picture and you see what the poison of radical Islam is doing to these people.

Extremist threats in Aceh: authorities close three churches



Jakarta (AsiaNews) - The ongoing protests by a Muslim extremist fringe has led to the closure of three Christian places of worship in the province of Aceh, the only province in Indonesia where Shariah (Islamic law) is enacted. According to the radical movement the churches were illegal and they have demanded - under threat - the intervention of the authorities. The local administration used the pretext of an alleged lack of building permits, to seal up the buildings. One of the three is a small - historical - Catholic chapel, open for almost 40 years and full of faithful during celebrations. Although an overwhelmingly Muslim area, the province of Aceh has always been characterized by a "spirit of tolerance" and this is the "first case" of an intervention by authorities against places of worship of the Christian minority.

The authorities closed the three Christian buildings in Aceh last May: the Catholic Church in Napagaluh, Singkil, a sub-district of Paris Danau, the Protestant Gereja Kristen Pakpak Dairi, and also the Napagaluh Catholic Church of St. Paul, in the village of Lae Balno. A Singkil district official explains that, according to law, they are all without a building permit (IMB, Izin Mendirikan Bangunan).

The Napagaluh Catholic church, in fact, is a "small, historic" prayer chapel - undung-undung in the local language - which opened in 1974 and is attended by dozens of faithful each week for the liturgies. In 38 years there were never any incidents, protests or tensions with local residents, who are overwhelmingly Muslim.

The closure is the result of a long series of protests promoted in recent times, by Islamic extremist movements in the area. Among these the Singkil Muslim Forum, which denounces the "proliferation" of Christian churches in the region. In particular, they point their finger at the construction of 27 houses of prayer, when, according to a "consensual agreement" reached in 2001 between Christians and Muslims, the expected number is only one permanent church and four undung -undung.

The Catholic Napagaluh church within the jurisdiction of the parish of Tumbajae Manduamas, belongs to the diocese of Sibolga, a suffragan of the Archdiocese of Medan (Sumatra). AsiaNews has contacted the local leaders of the Church who, at the present time, do not intend to comment or release a statement on the matter.

http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Extre...hes-24679.html

[sammy]

This just in. Some people are ******* idiots. There are a crap ton of Muslims. A lot of them are backwards and need to be pimped-slapped. A tiny fraction of 1 billion still equates to a lot. But guess what? There are lot of Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, Jewish, atheist, agnostic people all around the world that need to be slapped too. Muslims kill and hurt each other plenty too. They don't discriminate.