Can You Still Admire Someone's Work While Not Admiring Them as a Person?

[Manny Ramirez]

Tough question - I like most of the movies he has been in but don't really care for him as a person in Tom Cruise. That one jumps out at me. Musicwise, can't really think of anyone - maybe Keith Moon but he was more an idiot than a douche but a very talented idiot at that.

Neil Young can be a gigantic asshole from time to time (just read his biography "Shakey" if you doubt this). And Miles Davis is a good one - hopeless drug addict, playboy, but a damn genius and innovator.

[Honey Bear]

I've discussed this in length in some of my seminar's - ie - America's fascination with relating to the athlete/artist instead of dropping their insecurities and just appreciating the work alone. The issue with the common man is that he can't accept his own limitations. The zombie like state that he goes through life with which he can't produce anything creative or athletic (which he will always blame on his inferior genes, feel sorry for himself, then get into a relationship with someone else who feels the exact same way), creates too many layers for him to truly understand the greatness and limitless potential that is before him.

Think of a blank canvas. Now when you see it, you just see a 12x12 inch piece of paper that needs to be filled with alpha numerals, some data analyses, then recycled and repeated. IT's thoroughly uninspiring to you and extremely disposable.

Now take someone who is an athlete. An artist. A beautiful person. He sees that canvas and see's the unlimited. He is in complete awe of it and all the possibilities it brings. Time no longer means anything, words have never meant anything, and space is meant to be manipulated. THe creation, has begun.

As someone who represents the 1% - I think it's best to let the public know - the artist creates something so you can be drawn to the creation, not him. He himself wants to remain as annonymous as possible

When most of you see Kobe weaving his magic, you're frightened. You're scared. But it's not Kobe you're scared of - you're fearful of the own miserable state of ignorance that you live in. You're fearful allowing Kobe in your house means your wife won't come to your bedroom at night. You're fearful of ... success. Excellence. Dedication. The blood sweat and tears that go into being great. You want to see a court full of Brian Scalabrine's and Shane Battier's studying plays and making passes and nothing sensational happening.

Because ultimately, you're too cemented in the bleak state of your reality to go beyond and dream of the impossible. And without visualizing the impossible, you can never make it... possible.


Haha. Regulated.

[rhadamanthus]

You pretty much have to do this, everyday, or you'd just be a pure misanthrope.

Everybody has flaws, or cruelties, or struggles with some personal vice. Doesn't mean that the stuff they do is all bad.

That being said, I would find it hard to support someone I especially loathed...and it's a fine line to walk, admiring what someone does without implicitly supporting them...

[Scolalist]

Roman Polanski-Great Filmmaker to this day, Pregnant Wife murdered by Charles Manson, went crazy, raped someone and fled the country.

[bobrek]

Originally Posted by Batman Jones I misspoke. I only ever watch basketball so those were the only athletes I was talking about. I got to #57 before I saw a name I recognized and that name was David Robinson so even if it's true I didn't respect him to begin with.

Surprised you didn't recognize Tim Tebow, Nolan Ryan, Peyton Manning, Arnold Palmer or Jack Nicklaus (to name a few).

[BetterThanI]

Val Kilmer. Capable of great acting (also equally capable of phoning it in), but I've heard his personality on a movie set can be as bad as it gets. Director John Frankenheimer was quoted as saying "Will Rogers never met Val Kilmer" after working with him on The Island of Dr. Moreau. On the last day of shooting, Frankenheimer said "Now get that bastard off my set!" and later dropped the mother of all Hollywood insults: "There are two things I would never do again in my life: I will never climb Mount Everest, and I will never work with Val Kilmer again. There isn't enough money in the world."

Same with Christian Bale (except the "phoning it in" part).

[DFWRocket]

Originally Posted by Batman Jones That said, if I find out somebody's an active Republican my respect for them plummets and I would have a hard time enjoying the work of a Republican artist or athlete. We all have our limits. Then again, who is a Republican artist or athlete? I guess Karl Malone used to be an exception but I had ample reason to hate him already.

How about Republican actors..from the same site someone above listed:

http://www.ranker.com/list/actors-re...vatives?page=1

I think everyone already knew about Gary Sinise, Ron Silver, and Andy Garcia..but I was surprised to see Adam Sandler, Joan Rivers, Adam Baldwin, and a few other names on that list.

[FranchiseBlade]

Originally Posted by BetterThanI Val Kilmer. Capable of great acting (also equally capable of phoning it in), but I've heard his personality on a movie set can be as bad as it gets. Director John Frankenheimer was quoted as saying "Will Rogers never met Val Kilmer" after working with him on The Island of Dr. Moreau. On the last day of shooting, Frankenheimer said "Now get that bastard off my set!" and later dropped the mother of all Hollywood insults: "There are two things I would never do again in my life: I will never climb Mount Everest, and I will never work with Val Kilmer again. There isn't enough money in the world." Same with Christian Bale (except the "phoning it in" part).

I've actually worked with Val Kilmer on a movie set(all except the last week of filming. I understand why some directors might say that. But from my observations I loved his personality.

The thing is, he may have some grudge against authority, but it's like he's the guy from Real Genius. He's funny about it. I think if the director's take it as funny it doesn't get out of hand. But Kilmer isn't really serious about very much, and other stars and directors, particularly those that take themselves very seriously wouldn't mesh well with him.

I have only limited experience, and I can see where he wouldn't be to everyone's taste, but I thought it was funny, and he always seemed pretty cool to me.

[Major Malcontent]

Originally Posted by Batman Jones I could not care one single bit about the personal lives of the artists or athletes I admire. I was pretty bummed when Pete Townsend was accused of pedophilia but it didn't stop me enjoying or listening to his music. I was bummed when Cat Stevens signed onto the death warrant for Salmon Rushdie too, but I ain't never gonna quit Cat Stevens. Charles Barkley probably shouldn't have thrown that guy through a window, but dang if it didn't make me like him even more. And I frigging loved it when Metta World Peace ran up into the stands to confront a fan. Dylan has been known to be a major dick, to friends and lovers as well as strangers, and he was also probably in the top 10 artists of the last century. If somebody went looking for a reason not to like me or to judge something I did badly, they'd have an easy time of it. And probably some people don't see my plays because of that. I'm not like that. (Unless they have done something really seriously bad to me or a loved one.) Now. That said, if I find out somebody's an active Republican my respect for them plummets and I would have a hard time enjoying the work of a Republican artist or athlete. We all have our limits. Then again, who is a Republican artist or athlete? I guess Karl Malone used to be an exception but I had ample reason to hate him already.

I am surprised that a pedophilia accusation would put less of a bitter taste in your mouth than voting Republican. I mean I am Lefty McLeftible and all, but I do live in Texas and have Republican friends.

I enjoy watching Charlton Heston movies, he is from the "eat every last bit of scenery" school of acting. But I didn't like his politics, of course.

I do enjoy the Who...so I guess I just hope it isn't true.

[FranchiseBlade]

Originally Posted by Major Malcontent I am surprised that a pedophilia accusation would put less of a bitter taste in your mouth than voting Republican. I mean I am Lefty McLeftible and all, but I do live in Texas and have Republican friends. I enjoy watching Charlton Heston movies, he is from the "eat every last bit of scenery" school of acting. But I didn't like his politics, of course. I do enjoy the Who...so I guess I just hope it isn't true.

The accusation about Pete Townsend being pedophile was pretty much conclusively proven to be false. He was investigated and if you read about the facts in the case it seems it was highly unlikely that he was a pedophile.

[plutoblue11]

Stanley Kubrick, James Cameron - Outstanding filmmakers, though notorious for being tyrannical and unfriendly to crew members. More specifically with Cameron, he's hasn't been the friendliest to fans.

Vince McMahon - Pretty much most things you've heard (negative) about Vince and his company is probably true. I do not think his real persona is very far off from the Mr. McMahon character. Considering what he did with wrestling is almost nothing short of a miracle. He basically took a form of entertainment that was kind of comparable to the circus, where even the top performers were not necessarily rich. There's was the culture of KayFabe and as far as "us-normal" people were concerned it was a legitimate sporting event. Vince supported the "sports-entertainment" moniker and everything is predetermined (yet he maintained that it was tough line of work). Started to build his empire, and wiped out the relevance nearly all of the American and Canadian territories in a span of eight years -- AWA, Mid-South, Georgia Championship Wrestling, WCCW, and Memphis Championship Wrestling. It's not even funny how Vince captured all of those federations best talents. NWA/Jim Crockett Productions/WCW gained a little more staying power with Ted Turner.

It was a serious competitor, but that started to make alot of bad decisions and Vince won again.


Michael Jordan - Even when I was young, I got the sense that MJ was pretty much a self-absorbed, tyrannical douche-bag who probably had all sort wild-headed women (like most basketball players). Over the years, I've heard about the stories with fans, some of his groupies, affairs, treatment of teammates/management, opposing players, and etc. I feel a little guilty being a fan of his.

OJ Simpson - Most spectacular running back ever, most memorable commercials of his day, and the most notorious alleged double murderer of two non-black individuals in American history ... found not guilty. That's not actually the reason I dislike OJ. It's more because he's quite sycophantic (sort of like Tiki Barber, who almost made my list), cheated on both wives (stole his first wife from a friend of his), bad temper, and is genuinely an UNCLE TOM. Yes, I went there, sue me.


The opposite "LOATHE/DISLIKE/DON"T CARE FOR THE WORK", but LIKE the PERSON:


Tim Tebow: If you ask me what a nice guy, he (Tom Hanks, AC Green, or Yao Ming) would be the quintessential nice guy. Like a genuinely nice and respectful person. Though, I must attest he has sub-par skills for a sophomore-3rd year QB in the modern NFL. If you look at other present rookie QBs from the last few years who have been successful -- Matt Ryan, Matt Stafford, Cam Newton, Joe Flacco, Sam Bradford (healthy), and probably Andrew Luck/RGIII, this year. He's behind the curve in comparison to all those QBs, and it's by margins. It's going to take a few seasons of constant improvement to be truly up to snuff with those players as passers. He lacks a certain QB awareness, precision and smoothness in his throws, and some have pointed out his ability to read defenses.

Pauly Shore: His movies are necessarily high-art or great artistic feats, but the reason they are entertaining is sometimes the premise. Shore has a very condescending, yet goofy personality that is charming. He doesn't take himself too seriously or tries to be cool. He's seems very comfortable with himself.

Barack Obama: I'm not a Obamabot, like a few have suggested . . .simply because I am a black woman who lays in the left side of the bed. I realize politics is complicated. For one to win an election, one has to essentially fall into the favor of lobbyists and big businesses. You cannot really embrace too many new ideas or concepts, especially against the will of those entities who are now people. I was pulling for the Gravel/Kucinch/Paul (for republican side)/Nader ticket persons as usual. Though, I often question how effective or absolute power does a president really have . . .

With that being said, he's wonderful role model for anyone. Charming, friendly and down-to-earth like alot of recent presidents have been (Bush II, Clinton, Reagan, and Carter). It's unusual, but all five are very good negotiators. He's a quintessential family man and really good husband. Educated, mature, comfortable in his skin, smooth, sexy, beyond respectable,

There's nothing scandalous that has come up in his background, nothing of merit.

I think those who compare him, his wife, or kids to monkeys are vile racists. Same with the Birthers or those who sort of nit-pick at the types of mustards he might eat.

Off topic to some birthers: Jomo Kenyatta was not a socialist. Do some more research on your half-baked conceptions.

[B-Bob]

I think we need to merge these very similar threads:

http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=218238

[DFWRocket]

Originally Posted by plutoblue11 The opposite "LOATHE/DISLIKE/DON"T CARE FOR THE WORK", but LIKE the PERSON: Barack Obama: I'm not a Obamabot, like a few have suggested . . .simply because I am a black woman who lays in the left side of the bed. I realize politics is complicated. For one to win an election, one has to essentially fall into the favor of lobbyists and big businesses. You cannot really embrace too many new ideas or concepts, especially against the will of those entities who are now people. I was pulling for the Gravel/Kucinch/Paul (for republican side)/Nader ticket persons as usual. Though, I often question how effective or absolute power does a president really have . . . With that being said, he's wonderful role model for anyone. Charming, friendly and down-to-earth like alot of recent presidents have been (Bush II, Clinton, Reagan, and Carter). It's unusual, but all five are very good negotiators. He's a quintessential family man and really good husband. Educated, mature, comfortable in his skin, smooth, sexy, beyond respectable, There's nothing scandalous that has come up in his background, nothing of merit. I think those who compare him, his wife, or kids to monkeys are vile racists. Same with the Birthers or those who sort of nit-pick at the types of mustards he might eat.

funny thing...as a conservative, I agree with you here.
Even funnier..fact that Bill O'reilly himself has said numerous times how much he personally likes Obama..just not politically.

It says a lot about you when people who are supposed to be your enemies talk about how nice of a person you are.

[Cannonball]

Originally Posted by Manny Ramirez Neil Young can be a gigantic asshole from time to time (just read his biography "Shakey" if you doubt this). And Miles Davis is a good one - hopeless drug addict, playboy, but a damn genius and innovator.

Miles' autobiography is a pretty good read too. I don't think I've read another book that uses the word "N****r" more often. Yeah, Miles was addicted to heroin, but so were the majority of jazz musicians in that era, and kicked it by going cold turkey. Definitely an major asshole though.

[mic]

Just started playing Fez, did a little reading up on it to see what other people's thoughts were, and came across some pretty disconcerting stuff regarding the creator, Phil Fish. Love the game, but the guy seems like a douche. Reminded me of this thread.

I'm still happy to support the game, though, because it really is terrific.

[dandorotik]

The Who.

Pete Townshend- arrogant, standoffish, arrogant, threw his sound manager across the stage when the equipment wasn't working.

Roger Daltrey- short-tempered. When I saw him 2 years ago, kept complaining about the air conditioning and walked off the stage twice. Majorly uncomfortable for everyone.

John Entwistle- major druggie- very self-absorbed- blew all his money on ridiculous extravagances. Could be very indifferent to fans.

Keith Moon- total lunatic. Destroyed private property, put people in numerous uncomfortable situations, could be violent in many instances.


Best band ever created. Best lyrics (within a band, Dylan doesn't count), most creative approach to albums, one of the best singers, best bassist, best drummer, among the all-time greatest songs ever.

[kikimama]

Porn stars?

[pouhe]

Originally Posted by Ronny I've discussed this in length in some of my seminar's - ie - America's fascination with relating to the athlete/artist instead of dropping their insecurities and just appreciating the work alone. The issue with the common man is that he can't accept his own limitations. The zombie like state that he goes through life with which he can't produce anything creative or athletic (which he will always blame on his inferior genes, feel sorry for himself, then get into a relationship with someone else who feels the exact same way), creates too many layers for him to truly understand the greatness and limitless potential that is before him. Think of a blank canvas. Now when you see it, you just see a 12x12 inch piece of paper that needs to be filled with alpha numerals, some data analyses, then recycled and repeated. IT's thoroughly uninspiring to you and extremely disposable. Now take someone who is an athlete. An artist. A beautiful person. He sees that canvas and see's the unlimited. He is in complete awe of it and all the possibilities it brings. Time no longer means anything, words have never meant anything, and space is meant to be manipulated. THe creation, has begun. As someone who represents the 1% - I think it's best to let the public know - the artist creates something so you can be drawn to the creation, not him. He himself wants to remain as annonymous as possible When most of you see Kobe weaving his magic, you're frightened. You're scared. But it's not Kobe you're scared of - you're fearful of the own miserable state of ignorance that you live in. You're fearful allowing Kobe in your house means your wife won't come to your bedroom at night. You're fearful of ... success. Excellence. Dedication. The blood sweat and tears that go into being great. You want to see a court full of Brian Scalabrine's and Shane Battier's studying plays and making passes and nothing sensational happening. Because ultimately, you're too cemented in the bleak state of your reality to go beyond and dream of the impossible. And without visualizing the impossible, you can never make it... possible. Haha. Regulated.

Contemporary entertainment is neither original nor authentic enough to merit objective evaluation from audiences. The performer's personality and character are part of the product; and they, their studios and distributors, craft it to leverage more money and options. In a free market with a free press, that means their opinions, personal life and transgressions are open and fair game.

[pouhe]

Originally Posted by plutoblue11 Michael Jordan - Even when I was young, I got the sense that MJ was pretty much a self-absorbed, tyrannical douche-bag who probably had all sort wild-headed women (like most basketball players). Over the years, I've heard about the stories with fans, some of his groupies, affairs, treatment of teammates/management, opposing players, and etc. I feel a little guilty being a fan of his.

Sorry, I think Michael Jordan has always projected a poise and self-awareness that most pro athletes, unfortunately particularly young black ones; will always have difficulty capturing. This is most easily defined by observing the behavior of his closest contemporaries: Scottie Pippen, Charles Barkley and Magic Johnson (who has admittedly re-invented himself in the last twenty years).

To the extent that these three will never come along again, Jordan is the modern embodiment of Babe Ruth, Jackie Robinson and Joe Namath combined.

[pouhe]

Originally Posted by A_3PO Rush Limbaugh and Oprah Winfrey. I admire their business sense and success but despise everything else about them.

I bet if I met them outside of the context of their programs or celebrity they'd be completely affable. Both of these people have charisma and energy for days.