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[ClutchFans] Kevin McHale's View on Sports Analytics
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Clutch is offline Old 03-04-2012, 05:56 PM   #1
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http://rockets.clutchfans.net/2479/k...rts-analytics/

May merge this with madmax11's thread... but comments thread for a new blog post.

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OlajuwonFan81 is offline Old 03-04-2012, 06:01 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clutch View Post
http://rockets.clutchfans.net/2479/k...rts-analytics/

May merge this with madmax11's thread... but comments thread for a new blog post.
McHale could have summarized that in about 10 seconds....

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Rockets Jones is offline Old 03-04-2012, 06:04 PM   #3
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Exactly how I feel, some stuff is useful but most just reinforces what you know.
 
durvasa is offline Old 03-04-2012, 06:04 PM   #4
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I think people exaggerate the difference between the perspective of these old school basketball guys, like a Kevin McHale or Jeff Van Gundy, and what the "advanced stats" show. The stats are a supplementary tool to help make smarter decisions, but it doesn't replace the basketball insight that comes with experience. You need both, and more often than not they reinforce eachother (e.g. Shane Battier is pretty good, despite what his boxscore may suggest).

The fact the Rockets hired a Kevin McHale over a more numbers-oriented coach like, for example, Lawrence Frank, shows that they understand this. Its not just about hiring a bunch of statheads.
 
laserguy183 is offline Old 03-04-2012, 06:06 PM   #5
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I completely agree with McHale. Analytics, at least in basketball where there are a million variables, should only be used to complement a team strategy.

It is, however, useful for the draft in finding diamonds in the rough since it lets you screen hundreds of players based on statistics that correlate with success in the NBA.
 
Carl Herrera is offline Old 03-04-2012, 06:07 PM   #6
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Morey has said the same thing that McHale said, that Analytics in basketball tend to agree with conventional wisdom.

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J.R. is offline Old 03-04-2012, 06:24 PM   #7
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I hope McHale throws the info in the corner of the room and asks "What am I suppose to do with this?".

Just like Rick Adelman
 
Carl Herrera is offline Old 03-04-2012, 06:35 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hsf09 View Post
I hope McHale throws the info in the corner of the room and asks "What am I suppose to do with this?".

Just like Rick Adelman
The corner is already occupied by Thabeet, whom McHale threw into the corner at the beginning of the season, saying "what am I supposed to do with this?"

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J.R. is offline Old 03-04-2012, 06:36 PM   #9
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Haha

Well maybe he threw Morey's info at Thabeet then.
 
Carl Herrera is offline Old 03-04-2012, 06:39 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hsf09 View Post
Haha

Well maybe he threw Morey's info at Thabeet then.
Maybe Thabeet can figure it out. He speaks 5 languages after all. Maybe good at math, too?

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TheresTheDagger is offline Old 03-04-2012, 06:40 PM   #11
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I think I agree with Mchale here. But part of me feels like he really was distancing himself from it with his simplification of what it measures. Of course it reinforces things you already knew, but it does it in a way that you never looked at before. And at the end when he said its part of a package of things you look at, thats exactly right.

Example: Know that you want activity from your players. ALSO know that having 8 camera's and a computer filming and analyzing that exactly can give you data to help you measure player activity you never had before.

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J.R. is offline Old 03-04-2012, 06:43 PM   #12
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Better off just leaving it there.
 
dobro1229 is offline Old 03-04-2012, 09:51 PM   #13
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Good stuff Clutch. Im not sure what kind of career this is for you, but its amazing how much better your questions are that you ask in interviews than the Chron guys or 610 guys. Feigan and Friedman do a good job for the most part, but its great to get these questions out there rather than the "how do you feel about this... or that" questions.
 
CDrex is offline Old 03-04-2012, 09:57 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by durvasa View Post
I think people exaggerate the difference between the perspective of these old school basketball guys, like a Kevin McHale or Jeff Van Gundy, and what the "advanced stats" show.
Van Gundy basically said as much in his podcast with Simmons...he was highly complimentary of Morey's understanding of how to integrate that data into traditional player management and said that DM recognized that it was a supplement and not an end in itself.

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Dr of Dunk is offline Old 03-04-2012, 10:38 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CDrex View Post
Van Gundy basically said as much in his podcast with Simmons...he was highly complimentary of Morey's understanding of how to integrate that data into traditional player management and said that DM recognized that it was a supplement and not an end in itself.
Hell, Morey, himself, has said that in the past, but people on the forum act like it's some kind of "either/or" proposition. "Either you're pro-stats or you're "pro-old-school-visual-thingy". It's got to be among the most inane arguments I've seen on this forum. Wait... no way in hell, that's true - I take it back.

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Old Man Rock is offline Old 03-04-2012, 11:40 PM   #16
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Wow, Great question and honest answer from Mchale! Great job Clutch! No one else anywhere would ask that question. Friedman can't, his boss is running the show. And forget about Feigen, even if he knew the question to ask , his head is so far up Les' arse he would never dare.

The question clearly caught Mchale off guard and he seemed to answer with sincerity. Clearly he doesn't care much for it when he says things like "you want to score points in the paint, DOH!" but by the end of the question he appeared to be a little disheveled, as if he was aware he was dissihg his Boss. He threw a bone out by saying "there are some things that surprised me". But at the very end he seemed to be annoyed by the overall question and just wanted to get away from you.

Great job Clutch even though he may never answer another question of yours!

The funny thing is Adelman probably was more prone to listening to Morey than Mchale. And Rudy T would have been even moreso. His son trey and him do something similar to it with the Lakers and it has helped them.

I actually feel there is more value then what Mchale states but it's not going to make a bad coach a good one. At this level most of the coaches have the same knowledge so showing something trending in a different way is a plus. But it is also important for coaches to learn how to instill confidence in their players. Rudy always talks about not underestimate the heart of champions but a coach can help mold that heart as well. All you have to do is look at the Timberwolves, the worst team in the NBA by far and they are knocking on the door of the playoffs this year with Adelman at the helm.

In spite of what some may think I feel about Morey I think his analytics can help us on the court. My problem is using it to draft players. Rudy T now works directly under Kupchak and he goes to games and watches the players who don't play. Rudy watches them before the games how they shoot how eager they are to talk to the coaches how early they come out and how hard they work and he relays that info to Kupchak. He was high on Jeremy Lin. He relayed that to Kupchak. Who then told Brown and Brown wasn't interested. You have to get down to that level of analysis if you want to find a diamond in the rough and not just look at Twills great numbers in the D-league.

Some talents are not coachable. Rudy T got more out of MadMax than anyone but in the end he was a bomb. TWill has the talent but he doesn't understand how to play a team game. I got off on a different tangent but my point is there is a place for what Morey does but it is not the do all end all he thinks. And if he wasn't so stuck on it he would hire someone like Rudy to work for him to make a more natural fit for his stats. And quite possibly make it easier for Kevin to swallow this data. If you watched Moneyball no one was going to listen to the nerdy stat fat stat guy but it was easier to swallow from the Brad Pitt/ex-baseball player Character. Morey is no Brad Pitt. He needs to hire Battier to work under him to help do that.
 
Old Man Rock is offline Old 03-04-2012, 11:54 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr of Dunk View Post
Hell, Morey, himself, has said that in the past, but people on the forum act like it's some kind of "either/or" proposition. "Either you're pro-stats or you're "pro-old-school-visual-thingy". It's got to be among the most inane arguments I've seen on this forum. Wait... no way in hell, that's true - I take it back.
It's not that it's an either or situation. It's mostly been not. Van Gundy may praise it now but he clearly did not think much of it when he was coaching. Adelman was more open in the beginning but I think it is safe to say Morey wanted more control which is why he would only keep Adelman if he could replace his coaches. And now they got Mchale and he is clearly less interested in analytics than Adelman.

There is a place for Morey;s analytics but how you deliver it may be just as important as what you deliver. Having the nerdy fat guy in Moneyball tell you how to coach baseball is a hard pill to swallow. Morey is that fat nerdy guy. How do you expect a 3 time NBA champion, Hall of famer, top 50 NBA player of all time to listen to the fat nerdy guy.

Last edited by Old Man Rock; 03-04-2012 at 11:58 PM.
 
redhotrox is offline Old 03-05-2012, 03:47 PM   #18
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http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nba-ba...210615682.html

Made it to Yahoo Ball Don't Lie column.
 
leebigez is offline Old 03-05-2012, 06:49 PM   #19
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That's how I look at it. I'm wondering how the metrics react with raw/upside guys like kg,kobe,tracy, and even guys like holliday,westbrook type of guys.

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That really sucks, man. I feel for you. I've only seen 2 games in the NBA (one to see Jordan and another to see Yao), but I worry about paying big bucks to see Lin play with McHale as coach. I'll just have to wait it out. There's no way I'm driving all the way to Portland to sit in the cheap seats or watch Mr. 4th Quarter sit in the 4th quarter.
 
Dr of Dunk is offline Old 03-05-2012, 07:18 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Man Rock View Post
There is a place for Morey;s analytics but how you deliver it may be just as important as what you deliver. Having the nerdy fat guy in Moneyball tell you how to coach baseball is a hard pill to swallow. Morey is that fat nerdy guy. How do you expect a 3 time NBA champion, Hall of famer, top 50 NBA player of all time to listen to the fat nerdy guy.
That's just a reflection on the person receiving the message moreso than the messenger.

I dunno... I figured that having been booted as coach/GM already would give him some humility or at least some clue that having been a great anything doesn't necessarily mean you'll be a great anything else - even in the same sport. I mean, how many former players have already done crap jobs in management positions

Hey, let's hire Michael Jordan! He's got more rings, is a higher-regarded HOF'er, and is a top-1 to top-3 NBA player all-time!

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