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View Poll Results: Who's better? [Explain why in a post below.]
Griffin 78 22.03%
Love 276 77.97%
Voters: 354. You may not vote on this poll

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[ESPN] Who's better: Griffin or Love?
Tags:  basketball, beast, chris paul, defense, dirk nowitzki, espn, fight, hakeem olajuwon, injury, kevin mchale, lamarcus aldridge, los angeles clippers, minnesota timberwolves, nba, olajuwon, real estate, retro rockets, steam, working out Tags
The CDN Dream is offline Old 01-27-2012, 11:49 AM   #21
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LA is better.
- better defender, has better post game then both of them.. but gets less boards
- love is like the only good rebounder on the twolves while LA is wallace,camby and others
- I notice a lot that love will sacrifice closing out on his man in order to secure a rebound... therefore i see him as a little bit of a stat padder
- if i were to have a team i would take (from these 3) LA, Love, Griffin in that order

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JayZ750 is offline Old 01-27-2012, 12:23 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Dominant View Post
Leaping ability
There is no better leaper from the 4 than Griffin. The Clippers forward, who jumps almost exclusively off two legs, famously coined the nickname Lob City and his breathtaking high-wire act has not disappointed. Griffin is third in the league in dunks with 37, which is seven more than he had after the same number of games last season. One area of concern is that outside of dunking, Griffin's ups don't yield much else. Griffin ranks 106th in blocked shots. There are 45 power forwards -- and two point guards -- who block more shots than Griffin.

Love isn't a shot-blocker, either, but given his physical limitations, no one really expects him to be. But Love is not without his virtues. His vertical at the pre-draft camp in 2008 topped out at 34 inches, making him an excellent leaper by any standard. The biggest problem is that Love is not a quick leaper and lacks the ability to get any kind of useful elevation on his second and third jump attempts, while Griffin has the capability to slam home offensive rebounds on his third leap. But the lack of usable hops hasn't hurt Love, who's second in the league in rebounding with a gaudy 13.7 per game.
I can;t figure out how this category measures into anything? Leaping ability is important, if it makes you better at a tangible basketball category - blocks, rebounds, scoring, etc. But you don't need to measure leaping ability to see how good someone is at those categories... just measure those categories.

Blake wins the leaping ability category, but blocks fewer shots and is a worse rebounder?? great, so how does that make him better in any way? more exciting perhaps.

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see above. i guess it factors into what type of player they are, but all different types can be successful. I mean, they could have included basketball IQ, jump-ball success, inbound passing, etc. if they're going to include stuff like this.

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Originally Posted by tmac1
While LA is underrated, he's NOT better than either.

1) He isn't an elite rebounder
2) He doesn't get to the line nearly enough
He isn't an elite rebounder... but he is a proficient scorer, getting to the line or not. He has a higher TS% than Blake, and scores more per 36 minutes. And I do believe he's a better defender. He also has a higher PER than Blake.

I think it's fair to conclude that LA is underrated and Blake is a little overrated. One could argue that LA is better than Blake, for sure.

But better than Love? That's a stretch. Love has a higher PER, a higher TS%, is a better rebounder, and scores more per 36 minutes. LA is still probably a slightly better defender, but not much.

Love is definitely the top PF in the game, in my view.
 
t_mac1 is offline Old 01-27-2012, 12:35 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by rockbox View Post
Once Griffin loses his athleticism in 4 to 5 years, he will have nothing. Love will always be a good rebounder and shooter. Neither play great defense.
So you are saying Griffin makes no improvements at all in 4-5 years??? Head-scratcher.

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Originally Posted by JayZ750 View Post
He isn't an elite rebounder... but he is a proficient scorer, getting to the line or not. He has a higher TS% than Blake, and scores more per 36 minutes. And I do believe he's a better defender. He also has a higher PER than Blake.

I think it's fair to conclude that LA is underrated and Blake is a little overrated. One could argue that LA is better than Blake, for sure.

But better than Love? That's a stretch. Love has a higher PER, a higher TS%, is a better rebounder, and scores more per 36 minutes. LA is still probably a slightly better defender, but not much.

Love is definitely the top PF in the game, in my view.
With the lack of real centers nowadays, PFs basically are the real big men. You need to average 10 boards point blank, unless you're Amare or Bosh or dirk, who are soft around the boards.

LA's TS% is 53.9, and BG is 53.1, minimal at best. It's not something worth debating. LA has a more polished offensive game, and a much better FT shooter. But nevertheless, defenses don't fear LA like they do with Blake.

I've said before that Love is the best PF in the game in other threads. But for this post, I responded to a guy who claimed LA is better than both, which he isn't.

Last edited by t_mac1; 01-27-2012 at 12:39 PM.
 
mrjohn is offline Old 01-27-2012, 12:36 PM   #24
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Clips/Roxfan is offline Old 01-27-2012, 01:35 PM   #25
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JayZ750 is offline Old 01-27-2012, 02:02 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by t_mac1 View Post
With the lack of real centers nowadays, PFs basically are the real big men. You need to average 10 boards point blank, unless you're Amare or Bosh or dirk, who are soft around the boards.
I kind of agree with you, though don't think it is so point blank. Clearly, Love and Blake are better rebounders. However, Portland as a team is meaningfully better than both the Clippers and Wolves, at rebounding: http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/te...ounds-per-game

But clearly, LA loses in this cateogry.

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Originally Posted by t_mac1 View Post
LA's TS% is 53.9, and BG is 53.1, minimal at best. It's not something worth debating. LA has a more polished offensive game, and a much better FT shooter. But nevertheless, defenses don't fear LA like they do with Blake.
defenses dont fear Blake. This is the point some are making. He's not regularly double teamed or anything. Is he a capable competent scorer? Sure, but so is LA, perhaps more-so.

The idea that Blake is this superstar PF, feared by defenses, etc. is a byproduct of the media and fan fascination with his athleticism and focus on him being in LA, especially now with CP3.

I personally think Aldridge is the better offensive post player.

Quote:
I've said before that Love is the best PF in the game in other threads. But for this post, I responded to a guy who claimed LA is better than both, which he isn't.
While I don't think he is either, I think it's at least close enough to be debated, especially if you think he's a better defender, which I do.
 
TheBookOfOlu is offline Old 01-27-2012, 02:04 PM   #27
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The 28 people that voted Griffin over Love, don't watch basketball
 
dharocks is offline Old 01-27-2012, 02:10 PM   #28
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I'm not sure it's fair to knock Griffin by saying that teams don't game plan around stopping him... I mean, for starters we obviously aren't privy to what's discussed in coaches meetings and team film study, but moreover, how DO you game plan for a guy that can put up 25ppg by just finishing lobs, or catching the ball 5 feet from the rim, making one move and throwing down a dunk/getting fouled? If you want to look at the guy's impact offensively, look at the FTAs he gets per game. Look at all the easy buckets he gets.

Now look at someone like Aldridge. Does he have the most polished offensively game of the three? Certainly. But here's a guy that takes a bunch of mid-to-long range jump shots (and yes, he does convert them at an above average rate), even though he's a very effective finisher in the paint. You don't double a guy taking those shots. For all his skills, do they translate to Aldridge being the more EFFECTIVE player on offense?

I'm not sure they do. But don't get me wrong, he is a very good player. But is he appreciably better than Chis Bosh was in Toronto? Or any better, for that matter? I'm not so sure.

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JayZ750 is offline Old 01-27-2012, 02:27 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by dharocks View Post
For all his skills, do they translate to Aldridge being the more EFFECTIVE player on offense?
All the numbers point to yes. Higher TS%, higher scoring average per 36 minutes. Better PER.

Moreover, Blake clearly can be defended. Chuck Hayes has done it. Heck, Speights did a pretty good job in the first quarter last night. He's not easily defended, but can be. Not that there's as much double teaming going on in the NBA these days as their used to be, but you don't see Blake getting double team much, if ever. that's how I know he's not feared.

Also, I'm not sure about the fascination with FTA. I understand their importance, and how they can be a good thing. But if player A scores more and more effectively and efficiently than player B, but player B gets more FTA attempts, does that make player B better? Of course not. Considering that the whistle doesn't get blown quite as much in crunch time, it's an even worse factor to consider, as we've come to find out with Kevin Martin.

Look, I'm not definitively saying Aldridge is better than Blake. I don't really have a conclusion there. I think switch either player and there is probably very little change to team performance. And I understand why it's easier to be swayed by someone who can dunk from seemingly anywhere, but that's not the be all end all.

If Griffin can develop a mid-range jumper and better back to the basket game, he will clearly become a better, more complete offensive player, because Aldridge doesn't dominate inside like he maybe should or can, for whatever reason.
 
mogrod is offline Old 01-27-2012, 02:29 PM   #30
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I think this compares to the early debate on if Yao or Dwight was the better center. One is a pure athlete, especially for his size and the other is extremely skilled.

I'd personally take Love over Griffin. He still is a good athlete at his position but can do much more on the offensive side of the ball and will work/fight his tail off. Just my opinion though.

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dharocks is offline Old 01-27-2012, 02:37 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JayZ750 View Post
All the numbers point to yes. Higher TS%, higher scoring average per 36 minutes. Better PER.

Moreover, Blake clearly can be defended. Chuck Hayes has done it. Heck, Speights did a pretty good job in the first quarter last night. He's not easily defended, but can be. Not that there's as much double teaming going on in the NBA these days as their used to be, but you don't see Blake getting double team much, if ever. that's how I know he's not feared.

Also, I'm not sure about the fascination with FTA. I understand their importance, and how they can be a good thing. But if player A scores more and more effectively and efficiently than player B, but player B gets more FTA attempts, does that make player B better? Of course not. Considering that the whistle doesn't get blown quite as much in crunch time, it's an even worse factor to consider, as we've come to find out with Kevin Martin.

Look, I'm not definitively saying Aldridge is better than Blake. I don't really have a conclusion there. I think switch either player and there is probably very little change to team performance. And I understand why it's easier to be swayed by someone who can dunk from seemingly anywhere, but that's not the be all end all.

If Griffin can develop a mid-range jumper and better back to the basket game, he will clearly become a better, more complete offensive player, because Aldridge doesn't dominate inside like he maybe should or can, for whatever reason.
Ah, it looks like you're using this year's numbers. I'm actually going off last year since I'm not quite comfortable with the sample size for this year. Clearly Aldridge has been better so far offensively in 2011-12 to this point, but I think we'll be seeing improvement in Blake's performance as the season goes on, especially considering his age.

As for FTAs, in addition to getting opposing bigs in foul trouble and putting your team in the bonus, they're generally converted at a much higher rate than FGAs. In this regard Blake's not doing himself any favors this year because he's shooting such a putrid %, but it's so much lower than what he showed last year that I think he's due for a correction. We'll see.

But anyway, in terms of comparing the two overall, it's still the rebounding that jumps out at me. One could even argue that Blake's proficiency on the defensive glass closes the gap slightly between his and Aldridge's defensive impact.

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pmac is offline Old 01-27-2012, 02:40 PM   #32
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I'm just not sure the big man is all that important in the NBA anymore. The rules have changed to a point that I think in the next few years we'll begin to see Griffin or Love is a much less important question than Paul or Rubio.

It seems to me that a dominant perimeter player with good frontcourt defense is much more key to winning now than big guys that can score.

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Asian Sensation is offline Old 01-27-2012, 02:41 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JayZ750 View Post
defenses dont fear Blake. This is the point some are making. He's not regularly double teamed or anything. Is he a capable competent scorer? Sure, but so is LA, perhaps more-so.

The idea that Blake is this superstar PF, feared by defenses, etc. is a byproduct of the media and fan fascination with his athleticism and focus on him being in LA, especially now with CP3.

I personally think Aldridge is the better offensive post player.
This is correct.

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Originally Posted by dharocks View Post
I'm not sure it's fair to knock Griffin by saying that teams don't game plan around stopping him... I mean, for starters we obviously aren't privy to what's discussed in coaches meetings and team film study, but moreover, how DO you game plan for a guy that can put up 25ppg by just finishing lobs, or catching the ball 5 feet from the rim, making one move and throwing down a dunk/getting fouled? If you want to look at the guy's impact offensively, look at the FTAs he gets per game. Look at all the easy buckets he gets.

Now look at someone like Aldridge. Does he have the most polished offensively game of the three? Certainly. But here's a guy that takes a bunch of mid-to-long range jump shots (and yes, he does convert them at an above average rate), even though he's a very effective finisher in the paint. You don't double a guy taking those shots. For all his skills, do they translate to Aldridge being the more EFFECTIVE player on offense?

I'm not sure they do. But don't get me wrong, he is a very good player. But is he appreciably better than Chis Bosh was in Toronto? Or any better, for that matter? I'm not so sure.
Great points made here.

I think Love, Griffin and LA are all great players and it's hard to pick who's better as they obviously bring different skill sets. Right now it's too early to judge who's better. I think all three are doing equally well and they seem poised to be franchise players for a long time to come for their respective teams.

We can debate all we want but none of the three are head and shoulders better than the other. It all boils down to preference. If you like flashy/athletic players ala Kemp in his prime you're obviously going to pick Griffin. If you like old school players with good post skills and fundamentals you're picking Love. If you like a player that's not particularily great at anything but he's reliable and consistant you're taking Aldridge.

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Akim523 is offline Old 01-27-2012, 03:06 PM   #34
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I hate to say this but dirk is way better than any of these two
 
inishi is offline Old 01-27-2012, 03:26 PM   #35
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Kevi Love, what a dumb question. LA is goo, but he's not better than Love either.
 
roslolian is offline Old 01-27-2012, 03:30 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by t_mac1 View Post
While LA is underrated, he's NOT better than either.

1) He isn't an elite rebounder
2) He doesn't get to the line nearly enough
LMA is better simply because he's a much better defender than either of them. With the way the rules are set up, funneling opponents to your big men is the only consistent way to have a good defense, perimeter defenders can only do so much because of the no-handcheck rule.

I'd say LMA is the best out of the three, by a long shot.
 
JayZ750 is offline Old 01-27-2012, 03:34 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by dharocks View Post
Ah, it looks like you're using this year's numbers. I'm actually going off last year since I'm not quite comfortable with the sample size for this year. Clearly Aldridge has been better so far offensively in 2011-12 to this point, but I think we'll be seeing improvement in Blake's performance as the season goes on, especially considering his age.
well, I'm going off numbers that have actually happened, not what may happen. LA actually scored more efficiently last year. Blake was less efficient last year.

I am happy to concede that Blake has more ability to improve over time. He's younger and less experienced. But my analysis (and I believe this thread's) is who is currently better.

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Originally Posted by dharocks View Post
As for FTAs, in addition to getting opposing bigs in foul trouble and putting your team in the bonus, they're generally converted at a much higher rate than FGAs. In this regard Blake's not doing himself any favors this year because he's shooting such a putrid %, but it's so much lower than what he showed last year that I think he's due for a correction. We'll see.
You kind of answered your own question there. If he was shooting a higher %, he'd be better, more efficient player. He's shooting worse than last year, but he's yet to be a good free throw shooter.

Yes, fouls do get opposing bigs in foul trouble... but I'm not really seeing that particularly. Blake gets fouled a lot by a variety of players. Again, he's not having his most success in one on one type situations. Sure, it gets the other team in foul trouble, and to your point, the Clippers are third in the league in average ft's attempted per game. again, though, to your point, they don't shoot at a high clip. Portland makes more ft's per game.

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Originally Posted by dharocks View Post
But anyway, in terms of comparing the two overall, it's still the rebounding that jumps out at me. One could even argue that Blake's proficiency on the defensive glass closes the gap slightly between his and Aldridge's defensive impact.
True... but as I noted, Aldridge is on a better rebounding team, so it's not as if his relative worse rebounding is hurting his team. I concede he is not and never will be the rebounder Blake is. But I'm not sure if that's 100% due to him being a worse rebounder, or there are other factors. Yao never rebounded as much as he should have, but he was awesome at boxing out his man, for example. But in either case you're correct here.

As I've noted, if Blake develops a shooting touch/game, then he clearly becomes a dominant force. He doesn't currently have that. The best all around metric we have, which of course is flawed, is PER. As of today, LA's 23 PER is higher than Blake's.

Again, arguing that they should be ranked 1. Love, 2. Blake, 3. Aldridge doesn't bother me (I'm throwing out all other PFs for now). But I think the general public as a whole would never place Aldridge so high, whilst all would view Blake as a top PF.
 
Qball is offline Old 01-27-2012, 03:57 PM   #38
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Why the hell are people bringing in Aldridge or Nowitzki or Chuck Hayes into the discussion. Did yall not read the article....or the friggin title of the post at least?
 
JayZ750 is offline Old 01-27-2012, 04:49 PM   #39
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^ really? you can't understand why a thread about Blake and Love would end up discussing other good power forwards?
 
rockbox is offline Old 01-27-2012, 05:49 PM   #40
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I would take Aldridge over the other two because he commands a double team. Love and Griffin do not. There is reason why Portland stays in the playoffs despite losing one of the most talented guards in the NBA.

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