How should be play the pick-and-roll?

Primetime · 11-23-1999, 12:21 PM

Lets keep this simple. We don't switch, ever! We keep losing to Utah, Seattle, SA, and just about anyone who can run a basic 6th grade style pick-and-roll. Why the hell don't we switch? Sac got off shots whenever they wanted by running a basic high screen and roll. Switch off, take away the outside shot (that all guards nail against the Rox) and force them to go inside, where, hopefully, Dream and Cato are ready to swat that s**t. Tell me what YOU would do and then tell me why Rudy is the rare breed of coach that refuses to switch.

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Rudy must go! Rudy must go! Scarface owes me dinner.

Launch Pad · 11-23-1999, 12:34 PM

I agree that in some situations you should switch (e.g. in the SF and PF run a pick and roll, the you don't lose too much on D). However, traditionally the pick and roll is run by the PG and PF or C. If you don't switch, then this usually leaves the PG open for a long jumper, but if you do switch, the the PF is now guarded by your PG (i.e. the 7' PF being guarded by 6'3" Francis), so a quick pass to the PF will take advantage of the mismatch leading to a high percentage shot.

Bottom line: do you give up the long jumper or the heighth mismatch in the high post. Personally, I'd gamble on my PG being able to hustle under the screen to defend his own man.

Primetime · 11-23-1999, 12:39 PM

It makes sense on paper, I agree, but we have been getting torched by it each and every game. Anyone is capable of running it on us. All I say is change things up because we keep getting bit by the same bug. Dallas has Nash at PG and the only way to free him up will be screens cuz he will not get by Francis, right? So if the Mavs have continued success with the pick and roll, why don't we switch thins up every once in a while and prevent hem from getting into any kind of offensive rhythmn?

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Rudy must go! Rudy must go! Scarface owes me dinner.

Mulder · 11-23-1999, 12:54 PM

Hey Primetime this is way off topic but your not the same primetime from the old SRO days with Pickle and Pluto are you?

Launch Pad · 11-23-1999, 12:56 PM

I understand where you're coming from PT, but if you want to use the Dallas game as an example, Nash only scored 8 points, whereas their PF Nowitzki went off for 16. If you had switched Francis onto Nowitzki (a 7 footer), you may have contained Nash, but Nowitzki would have killed us even more. I am still more content giving Nash a long jumper, because I don't think he would do well to drive into traffic only to get stuffed by Olajuwon.

Finalfantasy · 11-23-1999, 02:00 PM

PLUS I DON'T CARE IF FRANCIS WOULD BE GUARDING A 7 FOOTER PF, IT IS BETTER THAN GIVING GUYS AN OPEN SHOT AND LETTING HIM SHOOT LEISURELY IN THE WIDE DESERT, AT LEAST STICK A HAND IN HIS FACE! SWITCHING IS THE ONLY BETTER WAY TO DEFEND PICK AND ROLL. THERE IS NO IDEAL WAY TO DEFEND IT SO WHY NOT TAKE THE SECOND BEST ROUTE!

Scarface · 11-23-1999, 02:05 PM

I bought a sattelight just for my viewing pleasures, and to watch the Rockets and mah oilers.

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"We need to fockass".....Dream back in the day

Bailey · 11-23-1999, 02:07 PM

Finalfantasy,

if you switch on the pick and roll, the PF is guarded by the PG, and is moving towards the basket, he certainly isn't likely to be taking a mid-long range jumper. The idea of not switching on the pick and roll is to give up the lower percentage shot, i.e. the long jumper rather than the lay-up/short jumper. I don't mind switching whether you switch on picks or not (if that makes sense

), but how do you decide when to switch, and when not to switch? Mix it up though.

Bailey · 11-23-1999, 02:11 PM

I've just read my last post (guess I should do that before I hit submit!) and I definitely used the word switch too much. Anyway, I guess my question is, do we want to switch everytime, or not? I've just got a feeling that if we do, people will post saying, "stop giving up these mis-matches, there's too many easy lay-ups. Let's force these guys to shoot the J by fighting round the picks." Am I being too cynical?

[This message has been edited by GBRocksFan (edited November 23, 1999).]

heypartner · 11-23-1999, 02:27 PM

I agree with your point:

Primarily, you must pick up that guard.

But I do not agree with other people who say you have to make a choice regarding switch or no switch.

A common way to play this is to clog it up with traffic. Our big man steps out to impede the progress of their guard, while our guard goes under the pick-- not over. We got very good at doing this against Stockton/Malone.

What this does is attempts to defeat the P&R by clogging it up. The guard going under prevents the PF from slipping down immediately. Our PF coming up, prevents the PG from getting a shot immediately. Once our guard comes under, you switch back. This must happen just as their guard is going around the pick...hence clogging it by having 2 defenders guarding 2 offensive players in close proximity.

Clogging the P&R is an alternative approach that you need to show every once in a while. There is no exclusive approach. You must show different looks, including not switching, by faking the clog. If their PG hesitates, ours is below and around the pick in a second.

Then of course, their PG can change directions or shoot over the pick. What it boils down to is, change it up constantly so the PG must keep making correct decisions. When he messes up, it's often a slam dunk the other way because our PF is transitioning from the top of the key.

GermanRocket · 11-23-1999, 02:30 PM

LOL, GBRocksfan - I don't want to switch the topic, so I'll just say that I agree that we need to switch more and that Rudy T needs to switch his strategy from not switching to switching.

Bailey · 11-23-1999, 02:31 PM

Right, so the choices now are switch, don't switch, or half-switch and switch back (sort of, if I understand your point). Gee, this coaching sure is difficult

Bailey · 11-23-1999, 02:32 PM

I've just thought, isn't it easier if we get a dimmer? Then we don't have a tough switch/not switch dilemma.

FunkDoctor · 11-23-1999, 03:20 PM

Not switching on the pick-n-roll doesn't work (unless the pg can't shoot). I would suggest a combination of switching and trapping the pick-n-roll. Trapping the PnR aggressively will lead to bad passes, turnovers, and easy baskets on the other end. The downside is possibly more fouls and possible lay-ups but it's defenantly(sp) better than giving up a wide open 15-18 ft jumper by the pg every time.

O-dawg · 11-23-1999, 03:28 PM

The answer is is SWITCH, definitely switch.

Why? Because the rules in the NBA have changed. You are now allowed to zone on the strong side w/o having an illegal defense called on you.

Why does this matter you ask? Because this means that now you can legally do, what Seattle (under George Karl) has done to us for years and have a man on the strong side floating in no mans land, guarding no one, so that he can double team quicker and more effectively.

So here's how it would go... pick and roll is run by the opposing teams pg and pf (or center). Our pg and pf switch, causing a mismatch, but this is not a problem because our center or sf(preferably the center, because the opposing teams sf is probably a better shooter and would not want to leave him open for a jumper) is drifting (or is in a zone) and double teams quickly taking away the advantage of the mismatch.

The only disadvantage to this is that as with any double team there is always a man left open. But passing out of a double team is no easy task.

Hey, I'm no NBA coach but this seems simple to me. You have younger players, better athletes, and the leagues rules have changed in your favor. Why not take advantage of these + 's and run a more up-tempo, pressure style of defense. This is also the deepest bench the Rock's have had in a long while, so this would also make running that sytle of defense easier (player fatigue wouldn't be as big a factor). What do ya' think?
What would be the draw backs?

Finalfantasy · 11-23-1999, 04:21 PM

GBrocksfan, The last thing I worry about the pf being picked up by our pg is that he moves towards the basket, if he does that he can't do it facing the basket, because he is not likely to drive past the pg and also likely to be called charging. If he backs it up then our center and pg can play double team to trap the pf. It not easy for the pf to pass the ball back to the pg guarded by our pf, since our pf is likely in the passing lane. He can't pass to their center either, as our center is on his back, unless their center leaves the basket to the wings to take a jumper. So it's basically not a problem, of course the reality won't be so simple, but the Rcokets need to switch as much as possible. Switching won't work everytime but it will disencourage the opponents to run P&R by giving them some trouble, because it forces the offense to rush it and the ball has a good chance to be stolen or knocked away. Open shots are not allowed in my book, you need to wear the opponents out by making them work hard to get the two points, even they get it anyway.

The DEMORALIZING factor of the Rockets' defense and offense is that they worked hard on every possesion ON OFFENSE, especially Hakeem and CB, yet they got burned almost everytime by a simple high school screen, as they give exactly what the opponents want BY NOT SWITCHING, an open look with plenty of time to execute. If the same thing happen to you, won't you feel depressed?

[This message has been edited by Finalfantasy (edited November 23, 1999).]

verse · 11-23-1999, 04:39 PM

O-Dawg:

bingo, my brother. if anyone here watched the chicago bull dismember the utah jazz, they would know the same thing.

the key is to either a) switch or b) trap the pg.

if you switch, the defensive pf or center needs to force the guard opposite of the direction he was going. this allows the pg, who is rolling with the offensive post player, to help impede progress towards the goal. the bulls figured out what rudy has been too drunk to recognize: john stockton can't shoot or pass going left.

if you trap, which i prefer, the pg has to pass over or through a quick pg and a tall post player. not an easy task. especially when the person is rolling to the basket. this tactic usually forces the pg to pick up his dribble. when the trap occurs, the rest of the defense HAS TO PLAY THE PASSING LANES! this is a key ingredient to the defense george karl has been running for years.

Boyz in the Hood,
you are right on the money. anything but letting the pg go behind the screen and pop the "j". like i've said before, there are college teams that could beat the rox, and college coaches that could outcoach rudy.

...getting outcoached by don nelson - CONSISTENTLY - is disgusting.

Primetime · 11-24-1999, 01:07 AM

Sorry Mulder, I am Primetime that always goes to Hooters with my boys from UH.

Mulder · 11-24-1999, 01:10 AM

Thanks anyway, bro.

Scarface · 11-24-1999, 01:24 AM

If we were to switch on the pick and roll we would still have a shot blocking presence on the floor at the time so it is not like the bigman will drive to the basket like their is nobody home. In the past we would switch over and help the defender by sending in horry towards the pg and then he would spaz and hesitate for a split second and then we would either steal the ball or cause an ill advised shot by Horrys man, but now Rudy is content on just sticking to each others man. When we did switch over against Seattle Barkley ran up to G.P. and forced him to throw a bad pass witch was then stolen by Francis, if done right we will have sucess with it but if we have Dream run up with Barkley back there were in trouble.

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"We need to fockass".....Dream back in the day