Freedom Flotilla II

[Mathloom]

JERUSALEM // Israel yesterday threatened to deny journalists entry into the country for a decade if they participated in a flotilla of pro-Palestinian activists attempting to sail into the Gaza Strip.

Israel's Foreign Press Association, which coordinates the activities of journalists operating in the country, criticised the move, calling it "a chilling message to the international media and raises serious questions about Israel's commitment to freedom of the press". "Journalists covering a legitimate news event should be allowed to do their jobs without threats and intimidation," the organisation said in a statement, urging Israel to "reverse its decision immediately".

Freedom Flotilla II, an umbrella group of organisations consisting of Israelis, Americans and nationals from a host of European and Asian nations, has come under increasing pressure to halt its Gaza flotilla. The US State Department last Monday warned American citizens that participation in the event could result in fines or imprisonment because it would violate "US civil and criminal statues". The United States and European Union, along with Israel, consider Gaza's Hamas rulers a terrorist organisation.

http://www.thenational.ae/news/world...a-for-10-years

Not sure what can be achieved by sending another flotilla. Also not sure what can be achieved by threatning journalists and participants.

At this point, I just hope for a lot of press and no casualties on any side.

[AroundTheWorld]

Originally Posted by Mathloom Not sure what can be achieved by sending another flotilla.

The goal is clear, more demonization of Israel.

"Provocation and attention-whoring flotilla" is more like it.

[Mathloom]

Originally Posted by AroundTheWorld The goal is clear, more demonization of Israel. "Provocation and attention-whoring flotilla" is more like it.

I'm fine with attention-whoring. You see that as a bad thing?

[AroundTheWorld]

Originally Posted by Mathloom I'm fine with attention-whoring.

We know.

[Hydhypedplaya]

Originally Posted by AroundTheWorld The goal is clear, more demonization of Israel. "Provocation and attention-whoring flotilla" is more like it.

ROFL

Mind explaining what delusional logic you used to come up with that? Organizing an event that highlights a 4 year illegal blockade aimed at collectively penalizing the Gazans is demonization?

I guess in ATW's head, the Egyptian/Tunisian/Libyan/Syrian etc protests are a demonization of each of those states. Apparently wanting basic human rights for Muslims is a "provocation" and "attention-whoring".

And before you come back with some ill conceived response:

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomac...lapse-1.335354

Israel told U.S. officials in 2008 it would keep Gaza's economy "on the brink of collapse" while avoiding a humanitarian crisis, according to U.S. diplomatic cables published by a Norwegian daily on Wednesday.

[vaids_13]

The hypocrisy evident in the pro-Israeli contingent is overwhelming when it comes to discussions like the Flotilla and demonstrations where surrounding areas marched on Israel's borders.

The claim is always that the Palestine needs to seek non-violent means to acheive their goals of justice for their displacement and equitable treatment socially. Whenever they attempt to do so, it gets pawned off as "media whoring"...why? There's nothing the Palestinians can do for their own rights that can be justifiable to the pro-Israeli contingent, and its bizarre that you'll find otherwise reasonable people defending violent actions taken against non-violent protesters.

Meanwhile, these same individuals are conspicuously silent when it comes to critiquing the bizarre proclamations of Israeli officials (even though, oddly enough, most Israeli's are not). Just last Thursday, the Israeli Justice Minister Yaakov Neeman - mind you, this is not a trivial position in any country- came out and literally said that Jews assimilating into non-Jewish countries (everywhere but Israel) will do for Judaism what Hitler tried to do in World War II. Quote:

"The problem in exile isn't conversion, it's assimilation," Neeman said. "How many [new] Jews join the Diaspora Jewry by converting, and how many [Jews] assimilate? Let's face the truth. What Hitler - may his name and memory be forgotten - didn't manage to do is happening in the Diaspora with its horrific assimilation."

[Mathloom]

Based on the experience of previous Gaza-bound boats, with the exception of the Mavi Marmara, the lecturer presents the options. "On deck you will be exposed to a few minutes of physical violence from the soldiers that will feel like a few hours," he says. "From previous experience, the soldiers, en route to the captain's cabin, will step on people's heads. You won't move, but they'll see you as the aggressor. The commanders know very well that we're not armed. But the simple soldier has been brainwashed, and he'll be afraid."

The instructor continues to list the positioning options, noting that up on deck the air will be clear because tear gas dissipates quickly. "By contrast, in a closed cabin, there won't be direct exposure to the soldiers' violence, but the tear gas chokes you and disorients you," he says. Once the Israel Defense Forces' boarding is complete, the tow to Ashdod could take seven hours or more, with the soldiers sitting on deck among the activists, say those who experienced last year's flotilla. They may not let you use the bathroom. What then? That's a good question. Experience has shown that the female soldiers are rougher than the male soldiers. Experience has also shown that some soldiers try to be nice, the instructor stresses. "It's true, even though I only saw their eyes," says a woman who took part in last year's flotilla. "They were and remained masked. But a few of the soldiers blinked their eyes in a way that I interpreted as friendly, as a desire to calm us down." Another instructor says that some of the soldiers might curse the passengers. "If you tell their commander that you see their commandeering the ship as an act of illegal kidnapping, that's legitimate," he says. "But don't curse back at them. That's one of the red lines." The "red lines" include several rules of behavior that were included in a written pledge of nonviolence, which all participants had to sign. The rules include: "No initiating physical contact with soldiers, no jumping in the water, no throwing objects at soldiers, no starting fires, no using fire extinguishers against soldiers, no use or display of objects that could be misconstrued as weapons (cameras, etc. excepted )." http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition...diers-1.369746

It's no wonder ATW has such a hard-on for female IDF soldiers.

[ChievousFTFace]

"The commanders know very well that we're not armed. But the simple soldier has been brainwashed, and he'll be afraid"

[vaids_13]

Originally Posted by ChievousFTFace

I dont understand what you're trying to argue with the video versus the quote. The man being quoted was speaking from personal experience and it was not specifically in reference to the ship in the video. I also dont believe that the man being quoted was objecting to the IDF coming on board to examine the supplies- the objection was to the incessant physical violence that the IDF subjects everyone on board to; unarmed civilians being thrown to the floor and having their heads stepped on is what he specifically said.

In fact, JUST above your quote of the man, it says the following:

Based on the experience of previous Gaza-bound boats, with the exception of the Mavi Marmara, the lecturer presents the options. "On deck you will be exposed to a few minutes of physical violence from the soldiers that will feel like a few hours," he says. "From previous experience, the soldiers, en route to the captain's cabin, will step on people's heads. You won't move, but they'll see you as the aggressor. The commanders know very well that we're not armed. But the simple soldier has been brainwashed, and he'll be afraid."

Is it so difficult to quote things in context?

[Oski2005]

Originally Posted by ChievousFTFace "The commanders know very well that we're not armed. But the simple soldier has been brainwashed, and he'll be afraid"

Slingshots, pipes, sticks, and kitchen knives.

[ChievousFTFace]

Originally Posted by Oski2005 Slingshots, pipes, sticks, and kitchen knives.

want to get hit at close range with a slingshot, pipes, thick wooden baton/stick or kitchen knife?

[ChievousFTFace]

Originally Posted by vaids_13 I dont understand what you're trying to argue with the video versus the quote. The man being quoted was speaking from personal experience and it was not specifically in reference to the ship in the video. I also dont believe that the man being quoted was objecting to the IDF coming on board to examine the supplies- the objection was to the incessant physical violence that the IDF subjects everyone on board to; unarmed civilians being thrown to the floor and having their heads stepped on is what he specifically said.

The video shows that while some activists on the flotilla are peaceful, others are there to ensure that weaponry is smuggled in. If the Israelis feel that their naval blockade is stopping 1 rocket from being fired into Israeli towns, they should be allowed to take the necessary actions.

As ATW said, this is a propaganda war is aimed at demonizing Israelis, Jews and Zionism. Where is the outcry by "peace activists" over the Qassam rocket fire?

Can you guess the #1 target of Qassam rockets being fired into Sderot:

Schools

But go ahead and chide me for not caring about humanity if you please. Let's continue to point fingers and have zero progress.

[vaids_13]

Originally Posted by ChievousFTFace The video shows that while some activists on the flotilla are peaceful, others are there to ensure that weaponry is smuggled in. If the Israelis feel that their naval blockade is stopping 1 rocket from being fired into Israeli towns, they should be allowed to take the necessary actions. As ATW said, this is a propaganda war is aimed at demonizing Israelis, Jews and Zionism. Where is the outcry by "peace activists" over the Qassam rocket fire? Can you guess the #1 target of Qassam rockets being fired into Sderot: Schools But go ahead and chide me for not caring about humanity if you please. Let's continue to point fingers and have zero progress.

I'm not interested in getting into a drawn out back and forth, and the chide was not about caring about humanity, but about deliberately quoting out of context, which I think I more than demonstrated with the full context of the one quote you produced.

As for your response, the debate is not about whether or not the IDF has the right to take necessary precautions- reasonable people will agree that precautions are necessary. The real question is what necessary precautions are. In the case of the article you quoted from, the activist, having participated in numerous aid convoys, cited that he had regularly been thrown down and had his head stepped on. Is this a necessary precaution? After performing an examination of ships, if weapons are found, is it not enough to simply arrest those present, take them to trial, and then try them as criminals?

This is the problem for Israel. If they claim to represent a standard for civil society, then live up to that designation appropriately. The IDF's weapon technology trumps those of every neighboring nation in the region. Did they really need to kill 9 people during the Flotilla? Does the discovery of knives, slingshots, and wood bats make the deaths justifiable?

As I've said before, reasonable people can disagree about Israel and Palestine, and I think the majority of people are less apt to take specific sides as they are to try and seek a just resolution to an unjust conflict (though I may be wrong here..). I'm not uncategorically pro Palestine, and have publicly said that not only do I find Palestinian violence condemnable, but counterproductive for their own goals. That said, I do believe that in the aggregate, they've been victimized at a far greater level than Israel and that the United States has disproportionately supported Israel in this ongoing conflict.

As for 'finger pointing' and having 'zero progress,' I can just as easily bounce that ball back in your court....

[ChievousFTFace]

Originally Posted by vaids_13 I'm not interested in getting into a drawn out back and forth, and the chide was not about caring about humanity, but about deliberately quoting out of context, which I think I more than demonstrated with the full context of the one quote you produced.

The full context lost a lot of its luster when you know for a fact that there were weapons and the activists were attempting to lynch the soldiers on the Mavi Marmara.

Originally Posted by vaids_13 As for your response, the debate is not about whether or not the IDF has the right to take necessary precautions- reasonable people will agree that precautions are necessary. The real question is what necessary precautions are. In the case of the article you quoted from, the activist, having participated in numerous aid convoys, cited that he had regularly been thrown down and had his head stepped on. Is this a necessary precaution? After performing an examination of ships, if weapons are found, is it not enough to simply arrest those present, take them to trial, and then try them as criminals?

There is a reason I bolded "necessary precautions." Do I think it's right to throw somebody down on the ground and stomp on their head? No. However, If I violate a blockade set up by a sovereign nation, you bet your butt I'd fully expect some sort of physical punishment while being caught.

As I stated before, this is a propaganda war. The Israelis know that any negative press against them is another tool to legitimize terrorism. This is why they have developed explosives and weaponry specialized in precise attacks to limit civilian casualties. Of course, the anti-Zionist propaganda machine that Glynch supports doesn't want you to believe this.

Originally Posted by vaids_13 This is the problem for Israel. If they claim to represent a standard for civil society, then live up to that designation appropriately. The IDF's weapon technology trumps those of every neighboring nation in the region. Did they really need to kill 9 people during the Flotilla? Does the discovery of knives, slingshots, and wood bats make the deaths justifiable?

Do terrorist organizations need to smuggle materials used for explosives hidden in bags for sugar?

http://www.haaretz.com/news/chemical...point-1.236148

Originally Posted by vaids_13 As I've said before, reasonable people can disagree about Israel and Palestine, and I think the majority of people are less apt to take specific sides as they are to try and seek a just resolution to an unjust conflict (though I may be wrong here..). I'm not uncategorically pro Palestine, and have publicly said that not only do I find Palestinian violence condemnable, but counterproductive for their own goals. That said, I do believe that in the aggregate, they've been victimized at a far greater level than Israel and that the United States has disproportionately supported Israel in this ongoing conflict.

And I have also argued that certain policies, specifically relating to settlement building only puts jews at risk throughout the world.

While there have been bumps in the road, Israel is the US's greatest ally in the middle east. As far as the US disproportionately supporting Israel... If people have a problem with Israel's enemies (Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hezbullah, etc.) being called terrorist organizations, then I truly worry about their loyalties to a civilized society that does not negotiate with or support terrorism.

Originally Posted by vaids_13 As for 'finger pointing' and having 'zero progress,' I can just as easily bounce that ball back in your court....

Please do. I have, time and again, on this board attempted to keep towards middle ground when it comes to discussing Israel. The problem is when posters like Glynch try to deligimize Israel's right as a Jewish state. The talking points become so extreme (and ridiculous) that there is no room for a middle ground.

Speaking of disproportionate:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...cerning_Israel

[vaids_13]

Originally Posted by ChievousFTFace The full context lost a lot of its luster when you know for a fact that there were weapons and the activists were attempting to lynch the soldiers on the Mavi Marmara. There is a reason I bolded "necessary precautions." Do I think it's right to throw somebody down on the ground and stomp on their head? No. However, If I violate a blockade set up by a sovereign nation, you bet your butt I'd fully expect some sort of physical punishment while being caught. As I stated before, this is a propaganda war. The Israelis know that any negative press against them is another tool to legitimize terrorism. This is why they have developed explosives and weaponry specialized in precise attacks to limit civilian casualties. Of course, the anti-Zionist propaganda machine that Glynch supports doesn't want you to believe this. Do terrorist organizations need to smuggle materials used for explosives hidden in bags for sugar? http://www.haaretz.com/news/chemical...point-1.236148 And I have also argued that certain policies, specifically relating to settlement building only puts jews at risk throughout the world. While there have been bumps in the road, Israel is the US's greatest ally in the middle east. As far as the US disproportionately supporting Israel... If people have a problem with Israel's enemies (Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hezbullah, etc.) being called terrorist organizations, then I truly worry about their loyalties to a civilized society that does not negotiate with or support terrorism. Please do. I have, time and again, on this board attempted to keep towards middle ground when it comes to discussing Israel. The problem is when posters like Glynch try to deligimize Israel's right as a Jewish state. The talking points become so extreme (and ridiculous) that there is no room for a middle ground. Speaking of disproportionate: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...cerning_Israel

This is unfortunately the game of most debaters- constantly change goal posts and shift topics.

I demonstrated that you intentionally took a quote out of context to push a point that didnt address it at all. Let me show the full context once again:

You're quote:

"The commanders know very well that we're not armed. But the simple soldier has been brainwashed, and he'll be afraid"

And then you showed a video of what was found on the Mavi Marmara.

The full quote was:

Based on the experience of previous Gaza-bound boats, with the exception of the Mavi Marmara, the lecturer presents the options. "On deck you will be exposed to a few minutes of physical violence from the soldiers that will feel like a few hours," he says. "From previous experience, the soldiers, en route to the captain's cabin, will step on people's heads. You won't move, but they'll see you as the aggressor. The commanders know very well that we're not armed. But the simple soldier has been brainwashed, and he'll be afraid."

So you specifically quoted the last line, and showed the Mavi Marmara, even though the one quoted stated that in his experiences, with the exception of the Mavi Marmara, he's seen nothing but physical violence for benign aid ships.

I'd respond to the rest, but I dont have time to go down the road of rehashing the entire debate of Israel vs. Palestine (we could go all day lol). And I have to get back to work

[AroundTheWorld]

Originally Posted by Mathloom It's no wonder ATW has such a hard-on for female IDF soldiers.

Whereas you have more of a hard-on for this?

[Hydhypedplaya]

Originally Posted by AroundTheWorld Whereas you have more of a hard-on for this?

Better than having a hard-on for the guys in this picture:

[AroundTheWorld]

It wasn't funny, clever or even remotely accurate the first time you posted that picture, and it doesn't get any better every time you re-post your little "masterpiece".

[cml750]

Originally Posted by AroundTheWorld The goal is clear, more demonization of Israel. "Provocation and attention-whoring flotilla" is more like it.

ATW you sir are 100% correct. How people get suckered into believing the Palestinians just want their freedom is beyond me. The goal is very clear that they want to destroy Israel. The "Palestinians", even though there was never a state of Palestine, have no desire to have a two country system. They want the whole thing for themselves.

[mgraye2969]

Originally Posted by cml750 ATW you sir are 100% correct. How people get suckered into believing the Palestinians just want their freedom is beyond me. The goal is very clear that they want to destroy Israel. The "Palestinians", even though there was never a state of Palestine, have no desire to have a two country system. They want the whole thing for themselves.

very true