An Israeli Looks at Israel's Response to Non Violent Protests

[glynch]

Originally Posted by FranchiseBlade Maybe the same reason people hated apartheid under S. Africa?

In addition it causes us to spend humdreds of billions on unnecessary military aid to Israel, and Egyptat least in the past. It is also somewhat responsible for the trillions spent on useless wars in the Middle East.

Aside from that as an American I don't really like states, espcially those created in the last century, that privilege one religion and ethnicity over other folks who live there.

[geeimsobored]

Originally Posted by StupidMoniker I have no problem with an armed response to an invasion. If huge masses of hostile Mexicans or Canadians, even unarmed, tried to advance on the United States' border, I would hope the military would repel them. Hell, I wish the border patrol would do a better job repelling those smaller groups that cross now.

The Israelis keeping Syrians out of the Golan Heights with tear gas and bullets is one thing and I can at least rationalize that. The Golan Heights were annexed by Israel and are considered part of Israel. Your analogy works in that case. The Syrians are foreign invaders trying to break into your country. I'm not sure force is necessary but from a purely philosophical standpoint you can at least justify it.

However that logic doesnt quite work with the Palestinians. They are currently occupied by the Israelis which begs the question of whether the West Bank and Gaza are part of Israel? If they are then protesting a denial of freedom of movement across your own country is perfectly legitimate. This also raises the question of rights and citizenship of the Palestinians if the West Bank and Gaza are part of Israel. If, however, they aren't part of Israel then that brings up all sorts of questions about the occupation's legitimacy, the legitimacy of settlements, etc.. Then that's more or less admitting that Israel is occupying land that it doesnt own or claim.

You cant have it both ways. And this fundamental contradiction is at the heart of this entire debate. Until Israel resolves that contradiction (among others) then you really can't say much.

[Hydhypedplaya]

Originally Posted by StupidMoniker I have no problem with an armed response to an invasion. If huge masses of hostile Mexicans or Canadians, even unarmed, tried to advance on the United States' border, I would hope the military would repel them. Hell, I wish the border patrol would do a better job repelling those smaller groups that cross now.

Nice to know you share Israel's sentiment as far as murdering unarmed people.

[Hydhypedplaya]

Originally Posted by AroundTheWorld http://files.myopera.com/magic_mania/albums/53530/17.JPG http://www.chinasmack.com/wp-content...-israel-09.jpg http://www.dailystab.com/blog/wp-con...bar-hurley.jpg vs. http://synergistic.files.wordpress.c...ishr-burka.jpg http://www.sott.net/image/image/6099/burka.jpg

Considering Israel has a 20% Muslim population (would be way more if not for ethnic cleansing), your argument is entirely pointless and irrelevant (as usual). Good job displaying your idiocy once again.

Anyone who has read even 1/1000th of your posts on this forum would know the only reason you love Israel is because they disproportionately kill hundreds of Muslims a year.

[sammy]

When the demonstrators tried to reach the fence—again near Majdal Shams—they were shot by sharpshooters. Some 22 were killed, and many dozens were wounded. The Palestinians report that people trying to rescue the wounded and retrieve the dead were also shot and killed.

Cmon ATW. This isn't right and you know it.

This isn't about Jews v Muslims. This is about Israel v Palestine. They both show signs of terrorism, imo.. one more than the other when it comes to killing innocent civilians.

[AroundTheWorld]

Originally Posted by sammy Cmon ATW. This isn't right and you know it. This isn't about Jews v Muslims. This is about Israel v Palestine. They both show signs of terrorism, imo.. one more than the other when it comes to killing innocent civilians.

I didn't read the initial post sammy. I am not condoning any killing.

[fchowd0311]

Originally Posted by StupidMoniker I have no problem with an armed response to an invasion. If huge masses of hostile Mexicans or Canadians, even unarmed, tried to advance on the United States' border, I would hope the military would repel them. Hell, I wish the border patrol would do a better job repelling those smaller groups that cross now.

you are a disgrace to mankind... go shoot yourself.... and I'm saying this as a trigger happy U.S. Marine. You have no shame or no humanity if you can pull the trigger on an unarmed man. ****in pussy.

[StupidMoniker]

Originally Posted by sammy one more than the other when it comes to killing innocent civilians.

You are right about that. Palestinians kill innocent civilians at a far higher ratio to military targets than Israel does.

Originally Posted by fchowd0311 you are a disgrace to mankind... go shoot yourself.... and I'm saying this as a trigger happy U.S. Marine. You have no shame or no humanity if you can pull the trigger on an unarmed man. ****in pussy.

Nice blanket generalization. So there is no circumstance under which it is acceptable to shoot an unarmed man, eh? What about if he is about to rape a little girl and you are too far away/can't possibly cross the intervening distance? What if the man is about to pick up a gun and shoot a kid? What if the man is reaching for a remote control detonator? What if the man is strangling someone and you have no chance of pulling him off before the victim is killed? What if you are a scout/sniper and are providing vital intelligence to an operation, your comrades lives are depending on you remaining in position, and an unarmed enemy scout spots you and starts running and pulling out a radio? What if you and your (wife/girlfriend/mother/other loved one) are surrounded by more people than you can comfortably fight off and they have ill intentions toward the two of you (this one would be especially relevant)?

[AroundTheWorld]

Originally Posted by Hydhypedplaya Anyone who has read even 1/1000th of your posts on this forum would know the only reason you love Israel is because they disproportionately kill hundreds of Muslims a year.

By your lunatic "logic", wouldn't that mean I would have to love Al Qaeda (since they are the ones that kill most Muslims every year)?

[fchowd0311]

Originally Posted by StupidMoniker You are right about that. Palestinians kill innocent civilians at a far higher ratio to military targets than Israel does. Nice blanket generalization. So there is no circumstance under which it is acceptable to shoot an unarmed man, eh? What about if he is about to rape a little girl and you are too far away/can't possibly cross the intervening distance? What if the man is about to pick up a gun and shoot a kid? What if the man is reaching for a remote control detonator? What if the man is strangling someone and you have no chance of pulling him off before the victim is killed? What if you are a scout/sniper and are providing vital intelligence to an operation, your comrades lives are depending on you remaining in position, and an unarmed enemy scout spots you and starts running and pulling out a radio? What if you and your (wife/girlfriend/mother/other loved one) are surrounded by more people than you can comfortably fight off and they have ill intentions toward the two of you (this one would be especially relevant)?

so when did these protesters rape women or give away troop positions in a battlefield? Again your a disgrace if you have it in you to shoot unarmed peaceful protesters. Nice try trying to defend yourself there.

[fchowd0311]

Originally Posted by StupidMoniker You are right about that. Palestinians kill innocent civilians at a far higher ratio to military targets than Israel does.

So it gives those Israeli snipers a right to pick off those protesters like hunting game when they had no intention for violence? God, i can't believe i'm even arguing this with you. Even ATW disagreed with what the Israeli snipers did here.

[fchowd0311]

Originally Posted by AroundTheWorld By your lunatic "logic", wouldn't that mean I would have to love Al Qaeda (since they are the ones that kill most Muslims every year)?

but Al Qaeda is Muslim so you would still hate them.

[AroundTheWorld]

Originally Posted by fchowd0311 so when did these protesters rape women or give away troop positions in a battlefield? Again your a disgrace if you have it in you to shoot unarmed peaceful protesters.

Assad. Gaddafi. Among others.

[AroundTheWorld]

Originally Posted by fchowd0311 but Al Qaeda is Muslim so you would still hate them.

Dude, don't tell me you are actually agreeing with this bullcrap by Hydhypedplaya. To say I love Israel because they kill Muslims is asinine.

[fchowd0311]

Originally Posted by AroundTheWorld Assad. Gaddafi. Among others.

so in this new intifada where were the protesters raping women?

[StupidMoniker]

Originally Posted by fchowd0311 so when did these protesters rape women or give away troop positions in a battlefield? Again your a disgrace if you have it in you to shoot unarmed peaceful protesters. Nice try trying to defend yourself there.

You are the one that said it was never acceptable to shoot an unarmed man. I provided you with a list of counter examples. Feel free to admit that the context of the shooting matters and that it is sometimes acceptable to shoot an unarmed man.

As for the case at hand, I would say an invading mob trying to cross the border in the face of an order to stop (especially when made up of a group that has often used suicide bombers in the not too distant past) requires a series of increasingly drastic steps to be taken until they stop advancing, which can include shooting them, yes.

As a marine, did you ever serve at a checkpoint or roadblock? If someone advanced on your position and refused all orders to stop, what did you do?

[rocketsjudoka]

Originally Posted by StupidMoniker You are right about that. Palestinians kill innocent civilians at a far higher ratio to military targets than Israel does.

I wouldn't be so sure about that since casualties in general have been far far higher on the Palestinian side in any conflict than on the Israeli side. Also not to mention that the policy of collective punishment hits the Palestinian populace as a whole harder than it does militants.

Anyway on the original topic I still have some skepticism about this latest Palestinian movement considering that the majority of refugees trying to cross the border are coming from Syria at a time when the Assad regime is facing a lot of domestic opposition.

[CometsWin]

Originally Posted by StupidMoniker You are the one that said it was never acceptable to shoot an unarmed man. I provided you with a list of counter examples. Feel free to admit that the context of the shooting matters and that it is sometimes acceptable to shoot an unarmed man. As for the case at hand, I would say an invading mob trying to cross the border in the face of an order to stop (especially when made up of a group that has often used suicide bombers in the not too distant past) requires a series of increasingly drastic steps to be taken until they stop advancing, which can include shooting them, yes. As a marine, did you ever serve at a checkpoint or roadblock? If someone advanced on your position and refused all orders to stop, what did you do?

In the civilized world, when a well organized military force is aware of a planned demonstration of an unarmed crowd of people including women and children they prepare with non-lethal measures to control that crowd. They don't prepare snipers and have them murder people in the crowd.

[LosPollosHermanos]

Originally Posted by AroundTheWorld Why do you hate Israel so much?

holy **** I think you may very well just be the biggest tool on this forum.

You go from asking why he hates I israel so much to posting pics like those and doing your best Basso impression of trying to come off as a moron.


if your being sarcastic leave a bit of a hint.

[LosPollosHermanos]

Originally Posted by AroundTheWorld Dude, don't tell me you are actually agreeing with this bullcrap by Hydhypedplaya. To say I love Israel because they kill Muslims is asinine.

I don't think thats a very farfetched assumption.

I don't see how your posts can do much to vindicate you, and when you say you don't, you follow it up with the exact opposite. Its quite absurd just to watch to tell you the truth.