"Making your teammates better" vs "Scoring more points"...?

[meh]

Which is more important when judging a player's offense?

Much has been made about Kevin Martin's lack of "making his teammates better" quality here and elsewhere. I can understand that. Because he doesn't have any gaudy assist as a finisher. But what I don't understand is why "making your teammates better" is so important when compared to "scoring more on offense."

Hypothetically, say Martin scores 30 points on 17 shots while old T-Mac scores 30 on 25 shots. That's maybe 6-7 extra "free" possessions created by Martin for his teammates to score(I take into account FT differences). Even if they're low percentage ones, say we go 2/7 on those possessions, that's 4 extra points. Points that the old T-Mac could produce. But the point is that by scoring efficiently, you can see that Martin indirectly help his teammates score.

It seems we can appreciate high percentage shots from an individual standpoint, but not from a team standpoint. Perhaps this is why players like Martin and Amare often gets overlooked by fans, pegging them as selfish or not-winning-players. But GMs do see their value. Morey for example wanted Amare, despite him looking like the ultimate non-Moneyball player. And yes for you Morey bashers, he did want Stat. The problem was that Stat didn't want us and Phoenix wanted no physicals.

And I think that's why I feel Kevin Martin's so undervalued even by his own fans. Beacuse we can't automatically see the correlation between scoring just about every time one touches the ball, and how that takes pressure off your teammates, and ultimately helps you score more as a TEAM.

[motionsiknes]

Kmart's role is to score. Period

[knote32]

Very nice post, with very nice logic.

The dude digs it dude.

[rockets934life]

I'm just ecstatic this isn't about T.Williams...

Interesting points, good stuff.

[leebigez]

All points arent created equal and we have been over this time and time again. Martin does what he is suppose to do, but he just doesnt have the same impact because of when he scores them. Reggie Miller made his teammates better and he was similar to martin. Why? In the 4th qt, he had another gear to which he came off picks and curls. Miller is also known to elevate his play in the 4th qt and the playoffs. We cant say the same for martin.
The comparison to mcgrady is so far off that its not worth going into a discussion about. Thats not a bad think and its not unfair, its just what it is. Martin would benefit from playing with a guy like mcgrady.

[AggieRocketsFan]

Thabeet is making all of our players so much better because he is taking ZERO shots every game, freeing up shots for other players.

[verse]

Originally Posted by leebigez All points arent created equal and we have been over this time and time again. Martin does what he is suppose to do, but he just doesnt have the same impact because of when he scores them. Reggie Miller made his teammates better and he was similar to martin. Why? In the 4th qt, he had another gear to which he came off picks and curls. Miller is also known to elevate his play in the 4th qt and the playoffs. We cant say the same for martin. The comparison to mcgrady is so far off that its not worth going into a discussion about. Thats not a bad think and its not unfair, its just what it is. Martin would benefit from playing with a guy like mcgrady.

You continuously prevent me from posting by stating, continuously, what I am thinking. Much props. Martin is an excellent third option on a championship team because he is efficient yet incapable of creating his own shot. On a mediocre team, fans think and suppose he could do that, but the reality is that they are mediocre because he is their best option and canNOT create against focused defenses in crucial times.

[verse]

The primary difference between Martin and Miller is that Reggie could get his shots off in the crucial, defensive moments. Martin cannot. plain and simple, minus a primary offensive focus besides Martin.

[choujie]

Make everyone else better = make the team offense more efficient.

If you are the one who is the most efficient scorer, take as many shots as you want. That helps team offense.

Martin is by far the most efficient scorer on this Rockets team. He can take whatever shots he want as long as it's not in crunch time. Scola is the most efficient crunch time scorer on Rocket.

There is a difference between Martin and AB in terms of scoring more points. The problem with AB is he isn't that much efficient than everybody else and he takes a big load of shots. That doesn't necessarily helps the team offense that much.

[SuperBeeKay]

When Martin has an off-night, we have Bud now to take the load off a bit.

[CXbby]

Unbelievable how people have such a hard time comprehending a simple point. The OP and this thread has nothing, nada, zilch, to do with Martin's ability to create his own shot.

It is about how Martin's efficient scoring indirectly generates more opportunities for his teammates, as opposed to "directly" from a pass for an assist.

The OP was trying to explain this concept because normally it would go over most people's heads, since it is not as straight forward as- me pass ball->he shoot ball->ball go in->me create.

Unfortunately, OP, even your explanation has gone over most people's heads. Move along.

[meh]

Originally Posted by CXbby Unbelievable how people have such a hard time comprehending a simple point. The OP and this thread has nothing, nada, zilch, to do with Martin's ability to create his own shot. It is about how Martin's efficient scoring indirectly generates more opportunities for his teammates, as opposed to "directly" from a pass for an assist. The OP was trying to explain this concept because normally it would go over most people's heads, since it is not as straight forward as- me pass ball->he shoot ball->ball go in->me create. Unfortunately, OP, even your explanation has gone over most people's heads. Move along.

Hahaha. It's true. It's a very simple concept if you think about it. Not your typical basketball cliche-type of thinking, but hardly mind-blowing. Yet apparently not evident to some.

[gotsis]

Originally Posted by meh Hahaha. It's true. It's a very simple concept if you think about it. Not your typical basketball cliche-type of thinking, but hardly mind-blowing. Yet apparently not evident to some.

I get the teory, but the t-mac comparison is kind of unbased. Players like t-mac make their teamates better because they draw a lot of attention, a team double teaming a star wing player opens up another player being that the star player will get the ball to the right place to take advantage of this. Kevin martin plays in a different way...

[sealclubber1016]

Kevin Martin is an efficient scorer, this is true.

But any plus he has scoring is given right back by his ineptitude everywhere else. He may help the team score a few more points, but his presence causes us to give up more points also, so its a push. And he doesn't close, he's sometimes not even on the floor in crunch time.

His adjusted plus-minus has been in the negative every year of his career.

So no he doesn't make his teammates better directly or in-directly.

[kovacs242]

Meh is usually right, this time again. Five star thread with some one star responses.

[meh]

Originally Posted by gotsis I get the teory, but the t-mac comparison is kind of unbased. Players like t-mac make their teamates better because they draw a lot of attention, a team double teaming a star wing player opens up another player being that the star player will get the ball to the right place to take advantage of this. Kevin martin plays in a different way...

I think you still missed the point.

I am referring to results, not the process. The process is different. Players like T-Mac can create higher percentage shots for his teammates. For example, say Scola is a 50% shooter with an average shooting guard. He might be 52% when playing with T-Mac. Hence, T-Mac makes Scola better. Not spread this to other players like Brooks, Battier, etc. All gets a slightly higher shooting percentage when playing with T-Mac.

Kevin Martin doesn't make other players shoot better. Perhaps Scola only shoots 50% with Martin on the floor, his normal amount. But because Martin scores so efficiently, he can essentially give Scola and other teammates more shots over the course of the game. So even if they shoot at a lower percentage, if the rest of the team gets extra shots per game, it would still produce more points for everyone else.

For example, Scola might 15 points on 13 shots with T-Mac, and score 15 points on 14 shots with Martin. Hence, he's technically a lesser player when playing with Martin. But because Martin shoots more efficiently than T-Mac, Scola's extra miss doesn't really matter because his extra miss would have attributed to T-Mac's own extra misses. Hence, the TEAM in the end benefit in similar ways whether you have a gifted passer, or a gifted finisher.

I do believe that as a team, you need different types of players to mix. i.e. Martin/Lowry seems to work a lot better than Martin/Brooks. But that scoring at an ungodly efficient clip in of itself should be viewed not just as an individual feat, but also a great help to the overall team.

Originally Posted by sealclubber1016 Kevin Martin is an efficient scorer, this is true. But any plus he has scoring is given right back by his ineptitude everywhere else. He may help the team score a few more points, but his presence causes us to give up more points also, so its a push.

Really. If that's the case, ever player he guards should putting up 20+ points at 60+TS%. Do you have any proof to back this up?

And he doesn't close, he's sometimes not even on the floor in crunch time.

Not sure why this has anything to do with my post.

His adjusted plus-minus has been in the negative every year of his career. So no he doesn't make his teammates better directly or in-directly.

I'm not sure what adjusted plus-minus has to do with "giving your teammates more shots so that they end up scoring more". Well, the Rockets are a .500 team.

I'm not exactly trying to use some advanced stat that only Morey can decipher here. It's very simple stuff. Let teammates shoot more -> teammates will score more -> teammates get better ppg -> team scores more.

[sealclubber1016]

If there were one side to the game i would agree, martin helps his team score points offensively. Him shooting more than others scores more points for the team because he scores in a highly efficient manner. I'm not retarded, i get what you are saying.

But if you are a very poor defensive player, his offensive contributions are lessened. Not entirely negated, but lessened, to the point that his offensive gains aren't that spectacular. Still a positive but nothing spectacular. I Likewise don't see what about this is so complicated to you.

[leebigez]

Originally Posted by meh I think you still missed the point. I am referring to results, not the process. The process is different. Players like T-Mac can create higher percentage shots for his teammates. For example, say Scola is a 50% shooter with an average shooting guard. He might be 52% when playing with T-Mac. Hence, T-Mac makes Scola better. Not spread this to other players like Brooks, Battier, etc. All gets a slightly higher shooting percentage when playing with T-Mac. Kevin Martin doesn't make other players shoot better. Perhaps Scola only shoots 50% with Martin on the floor, his normal amount. But because Martin scores so efficiently, he can essentially give Scola and other teammates more shots over the course of the game. So even if they shoot at a lower percentage, if the rest of the team gets extra shots per game, it would still produce more points for everyone else. For example, Scola might 15 points on 13 shots with T-Mac, and score 15 points on 14 shots with Martin. Hence, he's technically a lesser player when playing with Martin. But because Martin shoots more efficiently than T-Mac, Scola's extra miss doesn't really matter because his extra miss would have attributed to T-Mac's own extra misses. Hence, the TEAM in the end benefit in similar ways whether you have a gifted passer, or a gifted finisher. I do believe that as a team, you need different types of players to mix. i.e. Martin/Lowry seems to work a lot better than Martin/Brooks. But that scoring at an ungodly efficient clip in of itself should be viewed not just as an individual feat, but also a great help to the overall team. Really. If that's the case, ever player he guards should putting up 20+ points at 60+TS%. Do you have any proof to back this up? Not sure why this has anything to do with my post. I'm not sure what adjusted plus-minus has to do with "giving your teammates more shots so that they end up scoring more". Well, the Rockets are a .500 team. I'm not exactly trying to use some advanced stat that only Morey can decipher here. It's very simple stuff. Let teammates shoot more -> teammates will score more -> teammates get better ppg -> team scores more.

I know what you're trying to say, but when the game tightens, who can create a shot for those same teammates and make them better? If martin doesn't use the shots, its not like they're automatically going another place. He goes to the foul line alot and it doesnt count as a shot, but its a possession. So its still used as an act. When the game is in a different state late and in the playoffs, those extra possessions needs to be created.

[CXbby]

Originally Posted by sealclubber1016 If there were one side to the game i would agree, martin helps his team score points offensively. Him shooting more than others scores more points for the team because he scores in a highly efficient manner. I'm not retarded, i get what you are saying. But if you are a very poor defensive player, his offensive contributions are lessened. Not entirely negated, but lessened, to the point that his offensive gains aren't that spectacular. Still a positive but nothing spectacular. I Likewise don't see what about this is so complicated to you.

Originally Posted by meh Which is more important when judging a player's offense?

A player's offense. He are not talking about a player's total impact. Just his offense.

[meh]

Originally Posted by sealclubber1016 If there were one side to the game i would agree, martin helps his team score points offensively. Him shooting more than others scores more points for the team because he scores in a highly efficient manner. I'm not retarded, i get what you are saying. But if you are a very poor defensive player, his offensive contributions are lessened. Not entirely negated, but lessened, to the point that his offensive gains aren't that spectacular. Still a positive but nothing spectacular. I Likewise don't see what about this is so complicated to you.

I repeat the question since you ignored it the last time I asked. If Martin gives up as much as he scores, then every game the player Martin guards should be putting up 20+ points at ridiculously efficient clip.

Please back up your assertion with something, anything, that proves Martin's defense gives up as much as he gives us offensively.

Originally Posted by leebigez I know what you're trying to say, but when the game tightens, who can create a shot for those same teammates and make them better? If martin doesn't use the shots, its not like they're automatically going another place. He goes to the foul line alot and it doesnt count as a shot, but its a possession. So its still used as an act. When the game is in a different state late and in the playoffs, those extra possessions needs to be created.

I don't get why you keep talking about clutchness. I have yet to mention a single time in this entire thread about clutchness in any sense. You can bash Martin all you want about his being not being clutch or whatever. That has nothing to do with this thread. The entire reason why I disregarded your first post is because it derails the point of the thread. If you want to discuss Martin's utter lack of clutchness, simply start a different thread on that.

Btw, how are Lebron and Wade doing these days when the game is on the line against playoff caliber teams? And how did T-Mac do during those game 7s in playoffs when it's really on the line?