[Yahoo Sports] Jeff Bagwell's case for the Hall of Fame

[FROSTEEiCE]

Growing up a Jeff Bagwell fan I definitely think he should be there. He should make it alone on his hitting coach skills.

Taking a closer look at Jeff Bagwell's case for the Hall of Fame By Alex Remington Bobby Cox recently said that he'd put Jeff Bagwell in the Hall of Fame on the first ballot if he had a vote. The Astros' new hitting coach was certainly one of the best first basemen of his era, but is he truly Hall of Fame material? There are 25 first basemen in the Hall, but that number requires a little adjusting. Many players who were inducted as first basemen, like Ernie Banks and Rod Carew, came to prominence at a different position. And others, like Dan Brouthers and Buck Leonard, didn't play in the modern Major Leagues; Brouthers played in the late 19th century, before the formation of the American League, and Leonard played in the Negro Leagues, barred from the majors by the color of his skin. Bagwell's true peers, the modern-era major league first basemen who came to fame playing that position, number only 13.* * They are Orlando Cepeda, Frank Chance, Jimmie Foxx, Lou Gehrig, Hank Greenberg, George "High Pockets" Kelly, Harmon Killebrew, Willie McCovey, Johnny Mize, Eddie Murray, Tony Perez, George Sisler, and Bill Terry. George "High Pockets" Kelly and Tony Perez are commonly considered two of the weaker Hall of Fame selections, inducted because they were key parts of dynasty teams, the 1920's New York Giants and the 1970's Big Red Machine. So they're at the low end of the totem pole, but they're also Bagwell's lifeline. It's hard for any modern player to compare favorably to Lou Gehrig or Jimmie Foxx; High Pockets Kelly and his 148 career homers are a much easier milestone to reach. Bagwell had the comparative misfortune of playing in an era with an overabundance of incredibly productive first basemen. On the other hand, at least two of them — Mark McGwire and Rafael Palmeiro — have been linked with performance-enhancing drugs, which may make Bagwell's career look better in retrospect. Other than Bagwell, there are eight key first basemen of the last two decades: Carlos Delgado(notes), Fred McGriff, McGwire, Palmeiro, Albert Pujols(notes), Frank Thomas(notes), and Jim Thome(notes). All eight have over 390 career homers and an OPS+ over 130. So how does Bagwell compare on this list of 21 players — 13 Hall-of-Famers and eight contemporaries? Bagwell had a shorter career than nearly all the others, just 15 seasons, and his 2,150 games rank 11th of the 21 first basemen in our list. As a result, his counting stats are similarly middle-of-the-pack: 12th in homers, 11th in RBI, 10th in hits, and 10th in total bases. On the other hand, he's third in stolen bases. (For what it's worth, Bagwell is one of only 12 members of the 400-200 club, along with Hall of Famers Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, Frank Robinson, Reggie Jackson, and Andre Dawson.) As of now, Bagwell is fifth in runs, but Jim Thome tied him on Tuesday night and will soon push him to sixth on the list. His rate stats fare better by comparison, but he still doesn't dominate: He's sixth in OBP, 10th in slugging, and eighth in OPS+. On the other hand, he looks much better by Wins Above Replacement: He is third on this list in WAR, behind only Gehrig and Foxx, though Pujols is almost certain to overtake him within the next year or so. Even assuming that Palmeiro and McGwire are forever barred from the Hall, Bagwell would not lead in a single one of these categories. But he would be in the top half, which is an impressive achievement in a list that is more than half composed of Hall of Famers. But he lags behind Frank Thomas or Albert Pujols in nearly all the counting and rate categories, and is close to Jim Thome in many others. His WAR is the only hint that he outclasses them, though voters may give him credit for playing his entire career in the field while Thomas and Thome spent long years in the DH spot. However, voters have recently been skeptical about electing the second- or third-best player at a certain position in a given era, as can be seen by the outrageous lack of voter support that Tim Raines and Alan Trammell received, as they were overshadowed by Rickey Henderson and Ozzie Smith. During his career, Bagwell was never the best first baseman in baseball: First it was Frank Thomas, then briefly it was Mark McGwire, and then it was Albert Pujols. All have strong cases for the Hall, and Bagwell will have to hope he isn't penalized by voters for having too many talented colleagues. Fortunately, he retired before most of his peers, so he'll have a few years' head start. So he will have to hope that he can get voted in before their names start to appear on the ballot. What do you think? Does Jeff Bagwell belong in Cooperstown?

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/big...urn=mlb-263170

[juicystream]

I think he belongs. His total numbers are penalized by his shoulder injury. He didn't get to hang on long enough to accumulate the 500HRs, but he was very good at all aspects of the game, unlike many of his contemporaries.

[rpr52121]

I agree he should be in there.

The only thing he failed to mention would be stats based on ballpark, as he was relegated to the Astrodome for so many years that easily ate at his numbers.

[dylan]

I think he's borderline. It's funny, 12 years ago I would have said that Bagwell was a lock and Biggio was boderline but now I think it's the complete opposite. Clearly had Bagwell not had the shoulder issue he would be a lock but I don't think you can simply ignore his relative lack of counting stats. Also the fact that he only had one MVP and that was of course in the strike-shortened season.

One thing I think people forget about Bagwell was his base-running. I don't know that I ever saw him make a bad decision on the base paths and he got an extra base many times.

One thing that might be in his favor is timing. If I remember correctly he will be eligible a year before Biggio. If so I could easily see him not making it the first time but both going in the next year. That would be pretty epic, I have already told my wife that I'll be going to Cooperstown with or without her if that happens.

[pgabriel]

Originally Posted by rpr52121 I agree he should be in there. The only thing he failed to mention would be stats based on ballpark, as he was relegated to the Astrodome for so many years that easily ate at his numbers.

bagwell's home/away hr numbers don't suggest that

[rockets934life]

Baggy is my childhood icon, even over Biggio, but he isn't a first ballet guy. He is however a Hall of Famer so I can see him making it in his 2nd attempt.

FYI, I hate the term first ballet because if your a hall of famer then it shouldn't matter but sadly it does.

[rrj_gamz]

I'm biased, as i'm a stros' fan first...however, given his entire body of work, I think he deserves to be in...One thing regarding HR's was that he played a majority of his prime years in the Dome...he made good decisions and honestly, it's hard not to think of him as one of the best...

[Supermac34]

Bagwell's numbers really get smacked by a couple things.

1. He lost some prime career to injury. He missed a couple of almost half seasons when he was at his peak.
2. His career was shortened by injury. Had he not had a degenerative shoulder condition, its possible he could STILL be hitting for someone.
3. He played the first 10 years in the Astrodome, a very pitcher friendly park that loved to steal home runs.

When he retired, I remember reading an article that his adjusted stats from his MVP year make it one of the top 10 seasons by anyone, ever.

[leroy]

Originally Posted by dylan I think he's borderline. It's funny, 12 years ago I would have said that Bagwell was a lock and Biggio was boderline but now I think it's the complete opposite. Clearly had Bagwell not had the shoulder issue he would be a lock but I don't think you can simply ignore his relative lack of counting stats. Also the fact that he only had one MVP and that was of course in the strike-shortened season. One thing I think people forget about Bagwell was his base-running. I don't know that I ever saw him make a bad decision on the base paths and he got an extra base many times. One thing that might be in his favor is timing. If I remember correctly he will be eligible a year before Biggio. If so I could easily see him not making it the first time but both going in the next year. That would be pretty epic, I have already told my wife that I'll be going to Cooperstown with or without her if that happens.

I'm hoping for that to happen, too. I'd love to take my sons up there in a couple of years to see both go in at the same time.

[Scottay]

Originally Posted by pgabriel bagwell's home/away hr numbers don't suggest that

You do realize his home/away numbers are probably neutralized by the fact that he played in MMP later in his career. Baggy hit nearly as many homers in six seasons at MMP (108 in 3,038 AB) as he did in nine seasons in the Dome (126 in 4,699 AB).

Flip the time splits between the two parks and you see a substantial difference, especially given the state of his shoulder toward the latter stages of his career...

Finished in Top 3 of MVP Voting three times, and Top 10 six times. Also won ROY. Hell, dude led the league in Runs Scored three times as a first baseman!

[rockets934life]

Originally Posted by Scottay You do realize his home/away numbers are probably neutralized by the fact that he played in MMP later in his career. Baggy hit nearly as many homers in six seasons at MMP (108 in 3,038 AB) as he did in nine seasons in the Dome (126 in 4,699 AB). Flip the time splits between the two parks and you see a substantial difference, especially given the state of his shoulder toward the latter stages of his career... Finished in Top 3 of MVP Voting three times, and Top 10 six times. Also won ROY. Hell, dude led the league in Runs Scored three times as a first baseman!

Charlie P. on 790 mentioned he had an OBP of over .400, Slugging over .500 and 1500 runs scored and driven in...he was one of only a few to do that with names like Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb, Frank Robinson and some other LEGENDS.

[DonkeyMagic]

i don't think he will get in the first time around but eventually will.

[juicystream]

I hate that the writer says Bagwell was never the best 1B in baseball. He was easily the best in the NL, and really him and Thomas were even for most of their respective careers. Their numbers are very similar on an annualized basis, while Bagwell has over 1,000 more career games at 1B than Thomas.

Bagwell was a great base runner, great hitter, and very good defensive 1B. Not to mention being the greatest player in a franchises 40+ year history has to count for something. Only negative about Bagwell is his struggles in the postseason.

Mcgriff and Delgado won't make it.

Thomas & Thome will make it.

Bagwell should make it.

[FROSTEEiCE]

Also in addition to his ailing shoulder at the end of his career, Jeff missed lots of time during his prime years due to breaking his left hand 3 years in a row (93'-95'). Considering that, it's amazing he was able to produce the numbers that he did for missing so much time.

[Shroopy2]

Give any of those other guys the Astrodome for the first 10 years of their careers and see how they're counting stats add up.

(I havent looked at park adjusted stats, just trying to make a case for Bagwell)

[BigM]

He'll make it, the only question is whether it's first ballot or not.

The writer is wrong about him never being the best at his position.

[br0ken_shad0w]

Bagwell should be the in the HoF, no questions asked.

Of course what little credibility the voters had is gone once they put Jim Rice in.

[msn]

Originally Posted by dumbassremington During his career, Bagwell was never the best first baseman in baseball: First it was Frank Thomas, then briefly it was Mark McGwire, and then it was Albert Pujols.

Hey dumbass, defense and baserunning are part of the game, too. Frank Thomas and Bags were generally neck-in-neck offensively while they were in the league together. So, how does the Big Hurt compare to Bags on the basepaths or in the field? Thank you very much, Bagwell and his five tools were HEAD AND SHOULDERS better than Frank "I'll-Soon-Be-A-DH" Thomas. Hitting equals, and simply better at the rest of the game. Pujols' first few years, Bagwell was a far better first-baseman: because Pujols was playing third base.

And Mark "one trick pony" McGwire? BAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAAAA McGwire has more walks, more home runs, and more facial pock marks than Bagwell, and that's about it. As a total package, McGwire was *never* better than Bagwell, and neither was Thomas. Pujols, of course, has become an all-time great. But he began at third.

So, Mr. Dumbass Remington, allow me to correct your statement:
"During his career, Bagwell was generally the best first baseman in baseball."

That is all; thank you.

[msn]

Originally Posted by BigM He'll make it, the only question is whether it's first ballot or not. The writer is wrong about him never being the best at his position.

This is the only reasonable position. Every other argument is pure ignorance and bias.

[jev5555]

No mention of his gold glove though. Baggy is a first ballot HOF.