S&T for two Tier 1 free agents?

[valorita]

Hear me out.
Bron/Wade/Bosh are the only tier 1 free agents this summer. Each of them is going to get a max contract via S&T because I don't see anyone giving up guaranteed money. Tier 2 players like Amare, Joe Johnson, and Boozer will leave their teams outright because they know that their value is not worth a max s&t and therefore will settle for max money at less years.

In regards to free agency this summer I've been hearing a lot about how NY or MIA has enough cap space for 2 max free agents. The problem with teams that have all this cap space is that one or both of their prize players would have to sign outright and give up guaranteed $$$. I'm sure that if it came down to choosing a winning team or choosing 1 extra year of guaranteed contract, most players would choose the former. However, what if they didn't have to choose and could get both? Furthermore, if these teams somehow end up with two of the tier 1/tier 2 combinations, would they have enough good players on the team to truly be a championship contender?

That brings us to the question, does any other team have enough assets to pull of a s&t for two tier 1 stars and still have enough flexibility left over for role players?

For example, Houston would be able to facilitate:

S&T 1 with TOR: J. Hill, T. Ariza, S. Llull, NY 2011, 2012 picks, and J. Jeffries for Bosh and Calderon

S&T 2 with MIA: K. Martin, Aaron Brooks, future 1st round pick from HOU for Wade and Q. Rich

What the 2011 Rockets would look like...

Yao/Hayes/D. Andersen
Bosh/Scola
Battier/Budinger
Wade/Q. Rich
Calderon/Lowry

+ MLE
+ #14 pick 2010

If we've learned anything from these playoffs, it's that you require at least two premier players on your team to advance deep in June. I'm certain that Bosh, Wade, and Lebron are thinking the same thing while they are at home watching the playoffs.

I know this is a long shot, but the point of this thread was not to make a J. Taylor for Lebron ibtl trade. It is to rationalize why or why not a s&t for two premier free agents would be possible for our team. Comments?

[valorita]

woops, this thread might be better off in the "roster moves'
or
in the garbage bin...

[Juxtaposed Jolt]

No idea if your math is correct, but if your scenario plays out, I'd rather get LeBron than Wade.

Yao
Bosh
James
Budinger
Calderon

Scariest starting 5 in the game.

[vlaurelio]

Originally Posted by Juxtaposed Jolt Scariest starting 5 in the game

if yao is healthy

[da_juice]

Originally Posted by Juxtaposed Jolt No idea if your math is correct, but if your scenario plays out, I'd rather get LeBron than Wade. Yao Bosh James Budinger Calderon Scariest starting 5 in the game.

We all would, but I don't think Lebron is gonna sign and trade.

[HoustonRockets]

I don't think Bosh is a tier 1 superstar. Tier 1 superstars = Kobe, Lebron, D-Wade.

[Juxtaposed Jolt]

Originally Posted by HoustonRockets I don't think Bosh is a tier 1 superstar. Tier 1 superstars = Kobe, Lebron, D-Wade.

I think Bosh is a quiet Tier 1, or maybe Tier 1.1.

Like Gasol, Duncan (in his current state), etc.

[bellclare1]

Originally Posted by Juxtaposed Jolt No idea if your math is correct, but if your scenario plays out, I'd rather get LeBron than Wade. Yao Bosh James Budinger Calderon Scariest starting 5 in the game.

Give me Ariza over Bud in that line-up. Lebron needs a defensive wing to win ah title...

[RV6]

I sometimes think Morey is willing and looking to pull of a trade like this...sort of like what Boston did, but with more left over....but im just not sure if he would. The thing is the way he's building this team it'll stay competitive for very long time. He can constantly bring in talent or find it as he loses the old guys. The advantage there is the team never truly is in a rebuiling mode, so the money keeps rolling in. The problem is it may not be enough for a ring. I think ultimately it depends on what Les demands from him. Is he demanding just a highly competitive team or strictly a championship team? Does he want to take a risk to possibly win a ring AND make money, or play it safe, and definitely win enough to keep making money?

We'd like to think he wants a ring, but i dont think we'll ever know for sure what he's demanding from Morey unless morey doesn pull off a boston-like move.

[iconoclastic]

The viability of sign and trades does NOT depend upon the amount of trade assets on the teams, but rather the DESIRE OF THE PLAYERS TO GO TO THAT TEAM.

The main requirement is that these free agents, like LeBron, Wade, Bosh, etc. want to come play for the Houston Rockets more than other teams. The rest is minor.

[RV6]

Originally Posted by iconoclastic The viability of sign and trades does NOT depend upon the amount of trade assets on the teams, but rather the DESIRE OF THE PLAYERS TO GO TO THAT TEAM. The main requirement is that these free agents, like LeBron, Wade, Bosh, etc. want to come play for the Houston Rockets more than other teams. The rest is minor.

I wouldnt say it's only dependent on that or that the rest is "minor". Assests definitely matter and can also make or break a deal. There's exceptions of course. Some teams are so desperate to get something that they make a bad deal, but that's not always the case.

[Depressio]

Originally Posted by valorita Calderon/Lowry

We'd have to gut our entire team, so I'm not really going to comment much on such an unrealistic scenario, but I will say that I'd rather Kyle Lowry start over Jose Calderon.

[valorita]

The point that I'm trying to make is that most of us here believe (or would to believe) that Bosh in a s&t is a quite possible scenario. So, if we can do one s&t, why can't we do two, especially with the amount of assets we have accrued?

As for players wanting to come here, I wonder how many teams can offer what Houston can offer. For example, why go to NY to become a nation wide star, when you can go to HOU and become a global star. Or why go to MIA where there is a so-so supporting cast when you can play with the "best non-allstar team" ever?

So, if Bosh and Wade DID want to come to HOU, would it be possible to do two s&t? Or are there certain rules or cap figures that we are not aware of?

[smoothie]

why can't the max worthy free agents S&T to a team with cap space?

the team trading for them will be able to absorb their max contract into the cap space, and the team trading them out will be granted a VERY large TE equal to the outgoing salary. a TE the size of a max contract is good for absorbing any player in the game without having to give anything up. it would trump any other S&T offer.

*player gets his full max thanks to the S&T.
*new team basically spends cap space on max player.
*old team gets max contract TE.

win for all parties.

[RV6]

Originally Posted by TSchmal We'd have to gut our entire team, so I'm not really going to comment much on such an unrealistic scenario, but I will say that I'd rather Kyle Lowry start over Jose Calderon.

actually i think this scenario is different than others i've seen. Others truly gut the team and leaves create holes while hardly plugging the few we had. In this case he actually does a good job of covering any holes left by outgoing players, which really arent a lot from our active roster. What he does gut is some of the potential we had stashed away in picks and Lull, but i think it's worth it given the guys we get back. Our backups are still solid and we can pick up a true center via the MLE or draft.

I also think it's unlikely, but i think it would work, the key would be if Calderon can go back to playing at a high level again.

[RV6]

Originally Posted by valorita The point that I'm trying to make is that most of us here believe (or would to believe) that Bosh in a s&t is a quite possible scenario. So, if we can do one s&t, why can't we do two, especially with the amount of assets we have accrued? As for players wanting to come here, I wonder how many teams can offer what Houston can offer. For example, why go to NY to become a nation wide star, when you can go to HOU and become a global star. Or why go to MIA where there is a so-so supporting cast when you can play with the "best non-allstar team" ever? So, if Bosh and Wade DID want to come to HOU, would it be possible to do two s&t? Or are there certain rules or cap figures that we are not aware of?

honestly i think FAs know we have a great organization, but i think they know we lack players who think they can beat anyone, we lack swagger on the court. We have guys who know their role, who know who they can defend and outscore, but i think we need some that don't know any better at times and are still confident going against kobe or are trying to to push around Gasol and swatting his shot. WE dont really have that, hill may be the closest.

[valorita]

Originally Posted by RV6 honestly i think FAs know we have a great organization, but i think they know we lack players who think they can beat anyone, we lack swagger on the court. We have guys who know their role, who know who they can defend and outscore, but i think we need some that don't know any better at times and are still confident going against kobe or are trying to to push around Gasol and swatting his shot. WE dont really have that, hill may be the closest.

Actually, I think that the core group of players that are remaining on the roster qualify for the "never quit/bull dog mentality" that you were alluding to. Scola? Lowry? Hayes? Battier? Yao? These are all guys that are battle tested and have winning/swagger engraved in their genes. I can't believe that I'm quoting Barkley on this but he said something like, "Kenny, you know when I talk about my bunker? I'll go to battle with these guys any day." These guys are all warriors.

I understand what you mean by people having so much feux-confidence in themselves that sometimes they play above their talent level. I see this in the gym all the time, when there's this one dude that's not as good as he thinks he is but he "wills" himself to make shots etc. That kind of self-belief can be a double edged sword. Case and point made by J.R. Smith who can win games or lose games by himself. What the Rockets have, which I think is even better, is they have a group that understand how to win and play together to be greater than their individual parts. Didn't all the experts predict that we were gonna be bottom feeders this year?

[meh]

Originally Posted by RV6 I wouldnt say it's only dependent on that or that the rest is "minor". Assests definitely matter and can also make or break a deal. There's exceptions of course. Some teams are so desperate to get something that they make a bad deal, but that's not always the case.

None of that matters if the player doesn't want to come here. There's a reason they can get together and discuss destinations without talking to their owners.

Originally Posted by Juxtaposed Jolt I think Bosh is a quiet Tier 1, or maybe Tier 1.1. Like Gasol, Duncan (in his current state), etc.

Due to the nature of a max salary ceiling, you can say Lebron/Wade's tier 0, Bosh is tier 1, and the other guys tier 2.

But seeing as how tier 1 gets max and tier 0 gets that same max, it doesn't really make a difference how you word it.

[valorita]

Originally Posted by smoothie why can't the max worthy free agents S&T to a team with cap space? the team trading for them will be able to absorb their max contract into the cap space, and the team trading them out will be granted a VERY large TE equal to the outgoing salary. a TE the size of a max contract is good for absorbing any player in the game without having to give anything up. it would trump any other S&T offer. *player gets his full max thanks to the S&T. *new team basically spends cap space on max player. *old team gets max contract TE. win for all parties.

Would a rebuilding team prefer: A) massive TE that cuts costs and provides flexibility in terms of cap space to sign free agents. or B) young talent on cheap contracts plus picks? I am not a GM by any means, but I would probably choose B. I think that signing free agents pretty much = overpaying for even proven talent. Unless a team believes that the free agent can put them over the hump, overpaying players will surely hamper my rebuilding efforts. Just my opinion.

[RV6]

Originally Posted by valorita Actually, I think that the core group of players that are remaining on the roster qualify for the "never quit/bull dog mentality" that you were alluding to. Scola? Lowry? Hayes? Battier? Yao? These are all guys that are battle tested and have winning/swagger engraved in their genes. I can't believe that I'm quoting Barkley on this but he said something like, "Kenny, you know when I talk about my bunker? I'll go to battle with these guys any day." These guys are all warriors. I understand what you mean by people having so much feux-confidence in themselves that sometimes they play above their talent level. I see this in the gym all the time, when there's this one dude that's not as good as he thinks he is but he "wills" himself to make shots etc. That kind of self-belief can be a double edged sword. Case and point made by J.R. Smith who can win games or lose games by himself. What the Rockets have, which I think is even better, is they have a group that understand how to win and play together to be greater than their individual parts. Didn't all the experts predict that we were gonna be bottom feeders this year?

Thats not quite what i mean. There's different kinds of guys. I dont think the "never quit" guys are "bull dogs". Our guys definitely don't quit, but they stay within their abilities/roles, which is fine most of the time, but like i wrote earlier, sometimes you need someone that doesnt know any better. You also need someone who's not afraind to be a punk on the court, like an enforcer. We dont have that either. Hill is the closest to either, but all the other guys are just nice guys who play and play, but they're sort of predictable.

It's like when womensay they dont like the man who always plays it safe. He can be a good guy, faithful, smart, etc., but never takes a risk, never steps out of line...and just like in basketball, those guys often don't get the main prize. We're that guy. We're the team (guy) all the other look at and say "that's a great team (guy)", but that's it. We're good to know and interact with, but never get the girl(ring). And not to confuse it with being "boring", not saying we are or need to be exciting. We just need to to know when to not play it safe and just go out and take what we want.