The Myth about TMac Carrying the Rockets

[crash5179]

I am not going to argue if TMac actually carried the Rockets at times last year and more specifically into the play offs. What I want to know….is it true that he had to carry the Rockets and would the Rockets have been better served if they had gone into the play offs playing more like a team and not so reliant on what TMac could or could not do.

As I recall last season, the Rockets really started spreading the ball around and playing good team ball with TMac out. When TMac came back off of injury he did not just start dominating the ball or the offense he just tried to blend in with the offense. Slowly but surely he began dominating the offense. The ball stopped moving around like it had been and with Yao out TMac was starting to dominate the offense once again.

By the time we made it to the play offs the offense looked like TMac and whatever Rafer could give us that night. When Rafer was out it was more or less just TMac and we lost to Utah…AGAIN.

The argument many have against Wafer is that he can not carry a team like TMac can and the TMac carried this team into the play offs last year. So there really is no argument about TMac dominating the offense last season. But was that best for the team. Would it be best for the team this year?

I think RA has been preaching and many of us think it is best to have a total team offense and not one that is dominated by one player. Not to say one player can’t have dominating performances but everyone needs to be involved with the offense. When and if TMac comes back he needs to play a role on the offense not dominate the offense. The truly great offensive teams never relied on one player and one player never dominated the offense. From the Show Time Lakers to RA’s Kings, the great offenses included the whole team and did not start and stop with the same player. Unless Hakeem Olajuwon or Michael Jordan are on your team the chance for success when one player dominates the offense is slim.

TMac carrying the Rockets is a recipe for failure…just like it has been since he has been a Rocket.

[Shay]

When T-Mac comes back the ball movement will not be as fluid no question.

But it's not because T-Mac is a ball hog a lot of times his teammates are content giving him the ball and letting him create something.

Now , when he comes back they need to find the balance between ball movement and iso's , you can't win without ball movement but when you have a player of T-Mac's and Yao's caliber they have to get some chances to exploit theor mismatchess and create for themselves and others through some iso's.

[crash5179]

Originally Posted by Shay When T-Mac comes back the ball movement will not be as fluid no question. But it's not because T-Mac is a ball hog a lot of times his teammates are content giving him the ball and letting him create something. Now , when he comes back they need to find the balance between ball movement and iso's , you can't win without ball movement but when you have a player of T-Mac's and Yao's caliber they have to get some chances to exploit theor mismatchess and create for themselves and others through some iso's.

I was anticipating that argument to come out....

I also happen to think it is a valid argument but I don't know the cause for it. I had high hopes that trading for Artest would more or less stop that but who knows.

[flamingdts]

The offense last year after McGrady's return was nothing like this year.

McGrady moved more quickly, more fluidly, and we were winning. We weren't winning with RA's traditional motion offense, we were winning with RA's hybrid offense.

Last year's playoffs were a lack of effort from our entire team. As Rockets fans how can we shift the blame to McGrady last year? This year he should take up most of the blames, but last year's playoffs? McGrady has done a great job the past few years, and as fans we need to respect that.

However, despite our success in last year's regular season, our team still had a relatively new chemistry at the end of the day. The pressure got the better of almost all our players. Only Alston and McGrady showed up, and when you have Alston as your key to winning, then we've got a problem (even though Alston was on fire last year).

This is the reason why we're winning with just Yao, RA was able to build a new offense around our star players.

That being said, misleading thread title.

[crash5179]

Originally Posted by flamingdts The offense last year after McGrady's return was nothing like this year. McGrady moved more quickly, more fluidly, and we were winning. We weren't winning with RA's traditional motion offense, we were winning with RA's hybrid offense. Last year's playoffs were a lack of effort from our entire team. As Rockets fans how can we shift the blame to McGrady last year? This year he should take up most of the blames, but last year's playoffs? McGrady has done a great job the past few years, and as fans we need to respect that. However, despite our success in last year's regular season, our team still had a relatively new chemistry at the end of the day. The pressure got the better of almost all our players. Only Alston and McGrady showed up, and when you have Alston as your key to winning, then we've got a problem (even though Alston was on fire last year). This is the reason why we're winning with just Yao, RA was able to build a new offense around our star players. That being said, misleading thread title.

The title of the thread is not meant to be misleading but in fact many believe that Rockets are better when McGrady carry's the offense and I say that is a myth.

The Rockets are better when McGrady plays a role in the offense and is not THE offense. I am not blaming McGrady but clearly this has been a problem.

I will take our current offense with out McGrady over the McGady dominated offense at the end of last season when McGady was "Carrying the Rockets".

[roslolian]

Originally Posted by crash5179 I am not going to argue if TMac actually carried the Rockets at times last year and more specifically into the play offs. What I want to know….is it true that he had to carry the Rockets and would the Rockets have been better served if they had gone into the play offs playing more like a team and not so reliant on what TMac could or could not do. As I recall last season, the Rockets really started spreading the ball around and playing good team ball with TMac out. When TMac came back off of injury he did not just start dominating the ball or the offense he just tried to blend in with the offense. Slowly but surely he began dominating the offense. The ball stopped moving around like it had been and with Yao out TMac was starting to dominate the offense once again. By the time we made it to the play offs the offense looked like TMac and whatever Rafer could give us that night. When Rafer was out it was more or less just TMac and we lost to Utah…AGAIN. The argument many have against Wafer is that he can not carry a team like TMac can and the TMac carried this team into the play offs last year. So there really is no argument about TMac dominating the offense last season. But was that best for the team. Would it be best for the team this year? I think RA has been preaching and many of us think it is best to have a total team offense and not one that is dominated by one player. Not to say one player can’t have dominating performances but everyone needs to be involved with the offense. When and if TMac comes back he needs to play a role on the offense not dominate the offense. The truly great offensive teams never relied on one player and one player never dominated the offense. From the Show Time Lakers to RA’s Kings, the great offenses included the whole team and did not start and stop with the same player. Unless Hakeem Olajuwon or Michael Jordan are on your team the chance for success when one player dominates the offense is slim. TMac carrying the Rockets is a recipe for failure…just like it has been since he has been a Rocket.

Um can you say revisionist history? Remember that our roster last year consisted of Tmac, Shane Battier, Yao Ming, Scola, two rookies, Dikembe Mutombo, Rafer Alston, Chuck Hayes and Bobby Jackson. Take Yao Ming and Tmac out of that lineup and you have quite possibly one of the worst rosters in the league, and last year was the most competitive western conference in recent memory. Tmac HAD to carry us to the playoffs. If he hadn't played like JOrdan + Magic combined we would have been a lottery team. Your argument is moot because when Yao Ming went down without Tmac we were nothing last year

Regarding the offense, its been well documented that Tmac is not going to thrive in an Adelman offense. Passing, cutting and spotting up is just not his game. Tmac has high bball IQ but I think not playing in college stunted his growth somewhat; I don't think he learned to move without the ball. More importantly, he just not a good shooter-in Adelman's offense you really need good shooters like Peja Stojakovic or Mike Bibby to take advantage of all the open looks you get by cutting and passing the ball, and unfortunately our big 3just doesn't play that way.

[KingCheetah]

So now T-Mac has so transcended time and space he has actually become a living myth..?

[Easy]

What do you mean by "carrying"? You seems to think that "carrying" means the offense depends on him creating. If so, you may have a point.

But if "carrying" means that he was the most important player on the team and without him we could not have won so many games, than no, that's not a myth.

[crash5179]

Originally Posted by Easy What do you mean by "carrying"? You seems to think that "carrying" means the offense depends on him creating. If so, you may have a point. But if "carrying" means that he was the most important player on the team and without him we could not have won so many games, than no, that's not a myth.

Everyone standing around waiting for McGady to do something. McGrady putting it all on his shoulders not really trusting the rest of the offense. McGrady holding on to the ball through out the majority of the offensive possession. Thats what I mean.

[crash5179]

Originally Posted by roslolian Um can you say revisionist history? Remember that our roster last year consisted of Tmac, Shane Battier, Yao Ming, Scola, two rookies, Dikembe Mutombo, Rafer Alston, Chuck Hayes and Bobby Jackson. Take Yao Ming and Tmac out of that lineup and you have quite possibly one of the worst rosters in the league, and last year was the most competitive western conference in recent memory. Tmac HAD to carry us to the playoffs. If he hadn't played like JOrdan + Magic combined we would have been a lottery team. Your argument is moot because when Yao Ming went down without Tmac we were nothing last year Regarding the offense, its been well documented that Tmac is not going to thrive in an Adelman offense. Passing, cutting and spotting up is just not his game. Tmac has high bball IQ but I think not playing in college stunted his growth somewhat; I don't think he learned to move without the ball. More importantly, he just not a good shooter-in Adelman's offense you really need good shooters like Peja Stojakovic or Mike Bibby to take advantage of all the open looks you get by cutting and passing the ball, and unfortunately our big 3just doesn't play that way.

Revisionist history?

Maybe you are a victom of revisionist history. At the beggining of every year it seams that everyone is so excited about all the talent we have and by the end of every year we have one of the least talented teams around TMac.

While you may not like the message I don't think my post is false in any way.

My main point is that the offense is much better when everyone is involved and not dominated by TMac or ony other single player for that matter. You seem to disagree.

[flamingdts]

Originally Posted by crash5179 Revisionist history? Maybe you are a victom of revisionist history. At the beggining of every year it seams that everyone is so excited about all the talent we have and by the end of every year we have one of the least talented teams around TMac. While you may not like the message I don't think my post is false in any way. My main point is that the offense is much better when everyone is involved and not dominated by TMac or ony other single player for that matter. You seem to disagree.

McGrady involves everyone in the offense last year and the previous years. It's the matter of whether the role players take advatange of it.

For the past 2 years, in Yao's absense fans have constantly complained about the lack of finishers in our roster. Battier was our most reliable shooter. When it came to playoffs, none of our players showed up. Even if McGrady tried to include them on the offense, we won't produce anything.

Not to mention, we have star players. If McGrady can put up 20 pts a night, then RA should take advantage of it, if Yao can grab 15 rebounds and 20pts a night, RA needs to take advantage of it.

RA's job is to distribute the roles in our team, but he shouldn't be doing it to the point where it forces our star players to play below their talent level. In all winning teams, it takes 5 and ISO to win.

[pmac]

Originally Posted by crash5179 From the Show Time Lakers to RA’s Kings, the great offenses included the whole team and did not start and stop with the same player. Unless Hakeem Olajuwon or Michael Jordan are on your team the chance for success when one player dominates the offense is slim. TMac carrying the Rockets is a recipe for failure…just like it has been since he has been a Rocket.

I'm not sure i agree with this. Other than Olajuwon and Jordan there's the Kobe/Shaq lakers, the Kidd Nets, the Iverson Sixers, the Wade/Shaq heat team, Nash's suns, and even Duncan/Parker/Manu have the ball in their hands a considerable amount more than their teammates.

I think the only reason we're even having a discussion like this is because Mcgrady has played like garbage this entire seaason. In the past, when Mcgrady plays, we usually have a pretty good record and even when Yao is out. The issue is really how good Mcgrady is. If he's playing terrible when he gets back it doesn't matter if he's playing in the system or not we are probably better off without him. If he's playing as we've seen him play in the past then we are a better team with him.

[Blake]

Originally Posted by crash5179 I am not going to argue if TMac actually carried the Rockets at times last year and more specifically into the play offs. What I want to know….is it true that he had to carry the Rockets and would the Rockets have been better served if they had gone into the play offs playing more like a team and not so reliant on what TMac could or could not do. As I recall last season, the Rockets really started spreading the ball around and playing good team ball with TMac out. When TMac came back off of injury he did not just start dominating the ball or the offense he just tried to blend in with the offense. Slowly but surely he began dominating the offense. The ball stopped moving around like it had been and with Yao out TMac was starting to dominate the offense once again. By the time we made it to the play offs the offense looked like TMac and whatever Rafer could give us that night. When Rafer was out it was more or less just TMac and we lost to Utah…AGAIN. The argument many have against Wafer is that he can not carry a team like TMac can and the TMac carried this team into the play offs last year. So there really is no argument about TMac dominating the offense last season. But was that best for the team. Would it be best for the team this year? I think RA has been preaching and many of us think it is best to have a total team offense and not one that is dominated by one player. Not to say one player can’t have dominating performances but everyone needs to be involved with the offense. When and if TMac comes back he needs to play a role on the offense not dominate the offense. The truly great offensive teams never relied on one player and one player never dominated the offense. From the Show Time Lakers to RA’s Kings, the great offenses included the whole team and did not start and stop with the same player. Unless Hakeem Olajuwon or Michael Jordan are on your team the chance for success when one player dominates the offense is slim. TMac carrying the Rockets is a recipe for failure…just like it has been since he has been a Rocket.

You really think that we would have won 22 in a row without TMac taking over after Yao went down 10 games in?

No way. We needed him at that point. Now, not as much...

[leebigez]

With this so called ball movement, they have scored 100 and 98 pts. Ball movement always look better against poor teams and when the ball goes in. Also notice when the game because a lower dynamic, you have to het the ball in the hands of your best decision maker. The kings were a fluid offense, but when the game got tight, it was pick and roll with bibby. When La get into close games, its kobe pick and role. How many times did kobe run high pick and role with bynum. In money time, you don't want scola handling the ball as much as tracy.

[IamKhan]

Some stars are very good at taking a group of scrubs to win some games, but do not know how to play with other good/great players, AI is an example. Who's better? AI or Billups? If you are Memphis and you want to win 40 games instead of 30 games, AI is the guy for you. However, any top 10 teams would rather have the 'less talented' Billups.

Originally Posted by Blake You really think that we would have won 22 in a row without TMac taking over after Yao went down 10 games in? No way. We needed him at that point. Now, not as much...

[DaDakota]

Team oriented ball is what wins championships. You have to trust your teamates.

DD

[longliverox]

The team runs offence smoothely recently without T-Mac, so T-Mac does not have to be the dominating force on court for the team right now. When he comes back, he just need to be an updated mode of Von Wafer, adapt to the system the team is running now. He earns 20 mil per year, that is more than 20 times Von get. I dont expect him to make 20 times contribution to this team, but I think he is better than Von in almost every aspect except his easy-snap mind and girl-like attitude.
I might just be better for him to lower the expectation of himself and face the fact that he is not the old T-Mac again. So the best solution for him is to play like a great role-player, let others to lead the team, and I hope that is Artest.

[DaDakota]

TMac has to come in and play his role, he is a better player than Wafer, if he plays within the system.

If he comes in and tries to go "ISO" then the team is easier to guard, and he is hurting more than helping...even with those last second dump offs on his drives.

The team plays better moving the ball, where everyone is involved....EVERY team does....

It is all about trusting your teamates......to ALSO make a play...Dream had to learn it, and so does Tmac.

And that argument about Yao clogging the lane and not giving any room to drive...is destroyed by Von...the key is not to try to go one on one..but to do it off the inside out read and react passing offense.

DD

[Easy]

Originally Posted by crash5179 Everyone standing around waiting for McGady to do something. McGrady putting it all on his shoulders not really trusting the rest of the offense. McGrady holding on to the ball through out the majority of the offensive possession. Thats what I mean.

I am confused. You mean that's a myth? Or do you mean that's real but not good for the team?

Anyways, under JVG, creating for everybody was T-Mac's role on offense. You could see how stagnant the offense looked when T-Mac was not on the floor. That was always my beef against JVG's unimaginative over reliance on T-Mac on offense.

Under Adelman, the offense was supposed to be not dependent totally on T-Mac (and Yao for that matter). But the other players seemed to have difficulty shaking the habit of waiting for T-Mac to create whenever he was on the floor. That's the standing around. I don't think it was caused by T-Mac not trusting his teammates. If you want to see a player not trusting his teammates, look at Kobe (at least the Kobe a couple of years back). T-Mac is far from that. But T-Mac has his habits too. For most of his career since he went to Orlando, creating for everybody was his role. So he seemed to have a hard time adjusting.

That's why Adelman's offense was not able to be implemented very well. When T-Mac got hurt, the team finally was forced to get rid of the habit of standing around waiting for T-Mac. That's why it became much more fluid. When T-Mac came back, he was better adjusted to the flow.

So I still don't know the point of your thread. If this is a T-Mac bashing thread saying that he was overrated as a "carrier" of the team, then I believe you are wrong. T-Mac had been a better "team carrier" than Yao in the past 4 years. If you want to discuss whether the offense flows better without T-Mac, then the above comments are my take.

[DaDakota]

Any team relying mostly on ONE player for their offense is doomed to failure....it has to have multiple options......and this is why Tmac led teams fail in the playoffs....

If teams only have to game plan around one guy having the ball it is much easier to guard.

DD