Scenario...

[ROXRAN]

We pulled out of Iraq...After conferring with the Generals, Obama has changed his mind about a peacekeeping force for an unlimited duration...criticism is on mcmarks' fave. blogs, but not much else...

Attention is now on Afghanistan, and Pakistan...Obama has increased troops as promised, but after a year the death toll is climbing, while Al Qaeda has proved determined. In the wake of all this, you need to make a stand on what you want accomplished. Osama has not yet been found, you hear the far leftys asking for pullout regardless of "who wins"...Where do you make the stand?

Is it better to have the bunker mentality, everybody outta there,... 1 year of not too much to show for except mounting coffins is too high a cost?...In addition it is very expensive....Think of how many good social programs we can fund for even better with the increased funding...

Seriously, why support more time, resources, money, lives, and money?

What is your stand? Do you agree, we should just make the whole thing go away...Afghanistan and all?

What makes Afganistan so different? A surge in troops, and materials will cost us more billions of dollars, and more lives...and for what?

Most importantly,... how long will you support the war effort? How long will you support staying there? How much money, lives, and money are you willing to sacrifice?

[rodrick_98]

i'm not saying pullout yes or no, and i realize if we do pullout the taliban probably resumes control and we're right back to 2001...


but. osama is the target, and we had a shot at him in the 90s. who's to say we won't get another shot at him using our spy planes and other equipment?





does this render the afghani deaths vain? does it put the US at further risk for a future attack?

[vlaurelio]

Originally Posted by ROXRAN Seriously, why support more time, resources, money, lives, and money? What is your stand? Do you agree, we should just make the whole thing go away...Afghanistan and all? What makes Afganistan so different? A surge in troops, and materials will cost us more billions of dollars, and more lives...and for what? Most importantly,... how long will you support the war effort? How long will you support staying there? How much money, lives, and money are you willing to sacrifice?

so you don't actually want to go after the terrorists who were really responsible for 911?

[Trader_Jorge]

Originally Posted by ROXRAN Think of how many good social programs we can fund for even better with the increased funding...

Think it's expensive now? Just wait until he hastily pull out, thereby signaling to the world that we don't have the stomach to win a war. Think about when Iran and Al Qaeda take over the country and launch attacks from it. Think about the fragile supply chain for Middle East oil being disrupted. Think about chaotic instability in the region.

Now THAT would be expensive.

[ROXRAN]

Originally Posted by rodrick_98 i'm not saying pullout yes or no, and i realize if we do pullout the taliban probably resumes control and we're right back to 2001... but. osama is the target, and we had a shot at him in the 90s. who's to say we won't get another shot at him using our spy planes and other equipment? does this render the afghani deaths vain? does it put the US at further risk for a future attack?

Good reponse/thoughts...If Osama is the goal, how long should we risk on lives and money if after a certain time we are unable to acheive this goal?

Wouldn't it be better to have him contained? He likely lacks much direction and coordination of attacks anyhow from his position...Let him rot and die...Judgement will come to him. Why not let it go...? We will save money and lives....

We should put this money and resources back to work for us for a change. Where am I wrong?

Let's get completely out of it...No more lives, and money!...We got DHS, better tactics to stop an attack...There is no need to expend the resources of lives and money overseas when it can be better utilized within the country to help ourselves!

[ROXRAN]

Originally Posted by vlaurelio so you don't actually want to go after the terrorists who were really responsible for 911?

As far as I know those responsible in action got blown to ashes jsut like the civilians...Those responsible in thought and ideology are rotting in a hole...I want to go after bettering ourselves...How is killing an old man in a cave going to truly help ourselves?...We will spend lots of money and lives, and we may not be guaranteed on the prospect of "getting these terrorists" you speak of...

[ROXRAN]

Originally Posted by Trader_Jorge Think it's expensive now? Just wait until he hastily pull out, thereby signaling to the world that we don't have the stomach to win a war. Think about when Iran and Al Qaeda take over the country and launch attacks from it. Think about the fragile supply chain for Middle East oil being disrupted. Think about chaotic instability in the region. Now THAT would be expensive.

Relax (I'm with you) this is just a scenario...

[Sweet Lou 4 2]

Originally Posted by ROXRAN We pulled out of Iraq...After conferring with the Generals, Obama has changed his mind about a peacekeeping force for an unlimited duration...criticism is on mcmarks' fave. blogs, but not much else... Attention is now on Afghanistan, and Pakistan...Obama has increased troops as promised, but after a year the death toll is climbing, while Al Qaeda has proved determined. In the wake of all this, you need to make a stand on what you want accomplished. Osama has not yet been found, you hear the far leftys asking for pullout regardless of "who wins"...Where do you make the stand? Is it better to have the bunker mentality, everybody outta there,... 1 year of not too much to show for except mounting coffins is too high a cost?...In addition it is very expensive....Think of how many good social programs we can fund for even better with the increased funding... Seriously, why support more time, resources, money, lives, and money? What is your stand? Do you agree, we should just make the whole thing go away...Afghanistan and all? What makes Afganistan so different? A surge in troops, and materials will cost us more billions of dollars, and more lives...and for what? Most importantly,... how long will you support the war effort? How long will you support staying there? How much money, lives, and money are you willing to sacrifice?

I think Americans of all spectrums are dedicated to defeating Al Qaeda and the Taliban and that's what makes afganistan different than Iraq.

In a sad way, we created the mess there in Afganistan back when we left a void there after the soviets left.

Just as we see a mess when Saddam was taken out.

Hopefully we've learned a lesson about leaving power vacumms.

[vlaurelio]

Originally Posted by ROXRAN As far as I know those responsible in action got blown to ashes jsut like the civilians...Those responsible in thought and ideology are rotting in a hole...I want to go after bettering ourselves...How is killing an old man in a cave going to truly help ourselves?...We will spend lots of money and lives, and we may not be guaranteed on the prospect of "getting these terrorists" you speak of...

so why did we attack iraq again?

[ROXRAN]

Originally Posted by Sweet Lou 4 2 I think Americans of all spectrums are dedicated to defeating Al Qaeda and the Taliban and that's what makes afganistan different than Iraq. In a sad way, we created the mess there in Afganistan back when we left a void there after the soviets left. Just as we see a mess when Saddam was taken out. Hopefully we've learned a lesson about leaving power vacumms.

I hear you...but the very notion of defeating these terrorists there is going to take more money and lives in Afghanistan. Iraq is past. It's over. Good riddance...Our scenario is how much more money and lives are you going to sacrifice to support the war in Afghanistan...?

It's been a year now, billions of dollars wasted, thousands of lives...dead...Why not avoid all this useless struggle and bring it home where it belongs?

[ROXRAN]

Originally Posted by vlaurelio so why did we attack iraq again?

I don't know,...go ask the neocons...

[FranchiseBlade]

Originally Posted by ROXRAN I hear you...but the very notion of defeating these terrorists there is going to take more money and lives in Afghanistan. Iraq is past. It's over. Good riddance...Our scenario is how much more money and lives are you going to sacrifice to support the war in Afghanistan...? It's been a year now, billions of dollars wasted, thousands of lives...dead...Why not avoid all this useless struggle and bring it home where it belongs?

All along people on the left have been willing to pour more into Afghanistan. We've always been in favor of that, but Iraq was a huge distraction as our top military officer has mentioned.

We spend whatever it takes in AFghanistan/Pakistan.

[rodrick_98]

Originally Posted by vlaurelio so why did we attack iraq again?

'involvement w/ 911'
'UN violations'
'WMDs such as sarin, mustard, anthrax, nuclear'

those are the reasons i (and the majority) foolishly supported going in.





regarding afghanistan. none of us on here have access to the security briefings so we're limited to what we get from the news outlets. from that information it would seem that we could be just as successful as we were in the 90s by monitoring the country through technological means. hell, we saw 911 coming. we had our shot at osama in the 90s, and from the news reports i would say we're not much farther off than we were when we began in late 01/early 02.



furthermore, i don't want to hear about them bringing the war to us. i will give you the argument about oil prices and the questions about how high it goes if we leave and allow iran free reign. it's exactly why we should invest the current money in alt technologies (yes TJ, batteries or capacitors that will hold electricity for later use).

[ROXRAN]

Originally Posted by FranchiseBlade All along people on the left have been willing to pour more into Afghanistan. We've always been in favor of that, but Iraq was a huge distraction as our top military officer has mentioned. We spend whatever it takes in AFghanistan/Pakistan.

My sister group: code pink disagrees...You state "We" spend whatever in Afghanistan/Pakistan...I don't think you have my sister groups support...In fact I may just dip my hands in red paint and state in front of you that the blood of the Afghans will be on your hands...That will show you....and if that doesn't work,...We may get a permit to temporarily halt the 610 loop....

There are other anti-war groups within your brethen against all new fronts of war...Please don't be disingenious to the audience that "All people on the left have been willing"...that is untrue...We need to end all these bloodthirty warmongering rhetoric from you...Remember, we are part of you, you are part of us...let's work together to put these resources for the Earth and the needy...Just stop with the warmongering from within ourselves...Delving further into Afghanistan will do nothing but taint,...and deliver war crimes...

Let the hate go, and let's talk about perpetual peace...

[Sweet Lou 4 2]

Originally Posted by ROXRAN I hear you...but the very notion of defeating these terrorists there is going to take more money and lives in Afghanistan. Iraq is past. It's over. Good riddance...Our scenario is how much more money and lives are you going to sacrifice to support the war in Afghanistan...? It's been a year now, billions of dollars wasted, thousands of lives...dead...Why not avoid all this useless struggle and bring it home where it belongs?

not anywhere near the half-trillion spent already on Iraq, and that's not including the economic costs in terms of supporting the 10's of thousands of wounded soldiers as well as the drag higher oil prices are having on the global economy.

Afganistan is a much smaller place, and it doesn't require 10 billion a month and 150K troops to go after these guys. Heck, had we done that from the beginning it have been over years ago in afganistan.

in any case, the commitment has to be there. look, i am not for leaving iraq in chaos - but ya know what, by the time anyone can actually pull out - it will take a few years to do that no matter how fast you try - the country can stand on it's own and we can declare mission accomplished with a bit more credibility.

in afganistan, you don't have as complicated of a sectarian of a situation there. it's more of a pure nation building job. Building schools and providing stability. it's an opportunity to make the u.s. look good. it won't be as messy - the numbers just aren't there.

[ROXRAN]

Originally Posted by Sweet Lou 4 2 not anywhere near the half-trillion spent already on Iraq, and that's not including the economic costs in terms of supporting the 10's of thousands of wounded soldiers as well as the drag higher oil prices are having on the global economy. Afganistan is a much smaller place, and it doesn't require 10 billion a month and 150K troops to go after these guys. Heck, had we done that from the beginning it have been over years ago in afganistan. in any case, the commitment has to be there. look, i am not for leaving iraq in chaos - but ya know what, by the time anyone can actually pull out - it will take a few years to do that no matter how fast you try - the country can stand on it's own and we can declare mission accomplished with a bit more credibility. in afganistan, you don't have as complicated of a sectarian of a situation there. it's more of a pure nation building job. Building schools and providing stability. it's an opportunity to make the u.s. look good. it won't be as messy - the numbers just aren't there.

That may be true to some degree, but you still will spend at least a billion dollars or much more for a years work...Last I checked a billion dollars was not a drop in the bucket...We could put that billion (or likely much, much more) dollars into education, and the Earth climate crisis....Not to mention save possibly thousands of lives...Stopping all war is the best way for us to progress...What about that? ...Also after spending a few billion dollars and no Osama found, what then?...Who is to blame? ...

Just avoid all this mess, and not even go there...Bring them all home, and don't even send them anywhere over there again...This is all about bettering ourselves, and this mindset of being non-confontational to conflicts of war will help our reputation much more than even thinking about continuing bloodshed and warcrimes in Afghanistan... There is nothing worthwhile in Iraq...There is nothing worthwhile in Afghanistan...

There is no need to look tough to the evil neo-cons...All war is unjustified...There is nothing that is in our interest in Afghanistan...We were with you in Iraq,...Be with us with Afghanistan or anywhere else as well...

[Ehsan]

Originally Posted by Trader_Jorge Think it's expensive now? Just wait until he hastily pull out, thereby signaling to the world that we don't have the stomach to win a war. Think about when Iran and Al Qaeda take over the country and launch attacks from it. Think about the fragile supply chain for Middle East oil being disrupted. Think about chaotic instability in the region. Now THAT would be expensive.

Trader_Jorge,

I believe what you meant to say here is chaotic STABILITY, rather than chaotic instability.

Oh, unless you were insinuating that you have brought stability to Iraq and Afghanistan somehow?

[Sweet Lou 4 2]

Originally Posted by ROXRAN That may be true to some degree, but you still will spend at least a billion dollars or much more for a years work...Last I checked a billion dollars was not a drop in the bucket...We could put that billion (or likely much, much more) dollars into education, and the Earth climate crisis....Not to mention save possibly thousands of lives...Stopping all war is the best way for us to progress...What about that? ...Also after spending a few billion dollars and no Osama found, what then?...Who is to blame? ... Just avoid all this mess, and not even go there...Bring them all home, and don't even send them anywhere over there again...This is all about bettering ourselves, and this mindset of being non-confontational to conflicts of war will help our reputation much more than even thinking about continuing bloodshed and warcrimes in Afghanistan... There is nothing worthwhile in Iraq...There is nothing worthwhile in Afghanistan... There is no need to look tough to the evil neo-cons...All war is unjustified...There is nothing that is in our interest in Afghanistan...We were with you in Iraq,...Be with us with Afghanistan or anywhere else as well...

Because like I said I think everyone understands that leaving a power vacuum will eventually come back to haunt us. I doubt anyone will seriously protest our involvement in Afganistan. You didn't see war protests the day we invaded Afganistan, you saw the protests about Iraq.

People understand the difference and that we must fix Afganistan and rid that place (as well as Pakistan) of Al Qaeda. There's strong public support for that and that won't erode anytime soon.

Just being out of Iraq will free up a 100 billion a year to spend domestically. And on top of that, with oil flowing again in Iraq, that alone will bring relief to world consumers.

In order to end war, we have to ensure stability. Right now there are only two places on earth where war runs havoc - Africa and the Middle East.

We tackle Iraq, and then we have to deal with Israel and Palestine. That's how to end these wars. To make it so no one wants to fight them at all. And you do that by making people have something to lose.

But consider this - relatively speaking how much war is in the western hemisphere? You have some things going on in columbia now, but beyond that? It's relatively quiet. The number of troubled spots is decreasing. And that's a positive thing.

But peace isn't obtained by just putting our heads under the cover - anyone who thinks that is just naive - but at the same time, it's not going to be done blindly and cowboy style either.

[ROXRAN]

Originally Posted by Sweet Lou 4 2 Because like I said I think everyone understands that leaving a power vacuum will eventually come back to haunt us. I doubt anyone will seriously protest our involvement in Afganistan. You didn't see war protests the day we invaded Afganistan, you saw the protests about Iraq. People understand the difference and that we must fix Afganistan and rid that place (as well as Pakistan) of Al Qaeda. There's strong public support for that and that won't erode anytime soon. Just being out of Iraq will free up a 100 billion a year to spend domestically. And on top of that, with oil flowing again in Iraq, that alone will bring relief to world consumers. In order to end war, we have to ensure stability. Right now there are only two places on earth where war runs havoc - Africa and the Middle East. We tackle Iraq, and then we have to deal with Israel and Palestine. That's how to end these wars. To make it so no one wants to fight them at all. And you do that by making people have something to lose. But consider this - relatively speaking how much war is in the western hemisphere? You have some things going on in columbia now, but beyond that? It's relatively quiet. The number of troubled spots is decreasing. And that's a positive thing. But peace isn't obtained by just putting our heads under the cover - anyone who thinks that is just naive - but at the same time, it's not going to be done blindly and cowboy style either.

Code pink will protest,...and rest assured, when the billions and the lives start adding up, the voices will get louder...I'm not sure oil will flow from Iraq when we leave...I'm sure utilizing the money otherwise spent for Iraq will serve us, but we need all the financial help, and wasting money that was saved helps no one...

What are the goals for Afghanistan? Capture an old man rotting in a cave?....And if this does not happen after billions of dollars wasted and lives wasted...My question will be for what?...How much longer after 1 year?...Why do it?...Pack up and call it a day...Take your ball and go home...The perception is Afghanistan is easier, costs a bit less, and may take fewer lives, BUT...for the goal of delivering a single head?...It's idiotic,...CraZY!!!!!!

Keep the head rotting in a cave...bring the ball home...Save Billions of dollars...Save thousands of lives...

What is wrong with that?

[Sweet Lou 4 2]

Originally Posted by ROXRAN Code pink will protest,...and rest assured, when the billions and the lives start adding up, the voices will get louder...I'm not sure oil will flow from Iraq when we leave...I'm sure utilizing the money otherwise spent for Iraq will serve us, but we need all the financial help, and wasting money that was saved helps no one... What are the goals for Afghanistan? Capture an old man rotting in a cave?....And if this does not happen after billions of dollars wasted and lives wasted...My question will be for what?...How much longer after 1 year?...Why do it?...Pack up and call it a day...Take your ball and go home...The perception is Afghanistan is easier, costs a bit less, and may take fewer lives, BUT...for the goal of delivering a single head?...It's idiotic,...CraZY!!!!!! Keep the head rotting in a cave...bring the ball home...Save Billions of dollars...Save thousands of lives... What is wrong with that?

I don't think so. Most of the public see Afganistan as a moral and national war on terror - but not Iraq. Again, people will sacrafice for Afganistan but not Iraq. If I were 18 - I'd fight in Afganistan, but I wouldn't fight in Iraq.

It's not just a single head, it's the entire base of network that's committed to inflicting harm upon us. The Taliban and Al Qaeda's stated goal is the destruction of America. They are regrouping, and we can't let them have the opportunity to strike again, because they aims will be higher.

Defeating them now may cost us many precious lives - but imagine the cost someday, maybe 10 years down the line, of an A-bomb exploding in a metro u.s. city - probably DC, L.A., or N.Y.

this is the real thing. this isn't iraq.