A Little about those 15,000 Throw outs in 96

Dreamshake · 11-10-2000, 11:22 AM

Those 15,000 W Palm Beach thrown out votes for double votes in 96 has been over exaggerated.

Try,the real figure is more like 7000. Wonder were republicans got that figure of 15,000. I kept saying that Republicans were backing off when challenged on that figure.

A huge difference.

------------------
"I have amazing, powers of observation"...Pink

RocketsPimp · 11-10-2000, 11:40 AM

Speaking for my Republican cubicle buddy....where's the proof?

------------------
Only in America....do we use the word 'politics' to describe the process so well: 'Poli' in Latin meaning 'many' and 'tics' meaning 'bloodsucking creatures'.

Dreamshake · 11-10-2000, 11:52 AM

I per say dont have the proof. But a democrat in Florida had proof in hand, and figures in hand last night when he made this statement. And when he challenged Republicans with that figure, a hush fell over them.

on another note. About these 19,000 thrown out votes...

I think the courts should look at them and see to what extent of those 19,000 even had Bush as one of the double punches. Think about it. If 19,000 double punched but only 100 had Bush double punched, and 18,000 had Gore punched in one way then its obvious that these people were trying to vote for Gore, but were indeed confused by the ballot. Which is what Im going to bet my farm on. But if lets say 6,000 double punched with Bush having been one of the double punched then it could be assumed that the mistake was widespread and Gore could drop out of it.

I think this is the single most important aspect of the 19,000 votes. Consider this. Bush right now has a lead 300 votes. After mail in votes come in, Republicans are expecting at least another 2000 vote lead. If Gore was supposed to get just half of those 19,000 throw outs then he indeed did win. If Buchanan recieved about 2,500 too many votes in W palm beach then Gore still wins.

Either way I dont think that these two issues should go unchallenged or overlooked. To say that your too stupid therefore you dont deserve your vote to count is absolutely disgusting. Every person deserves their vote to count.

------------------
"I have amazing, powers of observation"...Pink

Major · 11-10-2000, 11:58 AM

Dreamshake makes a good point. I don't know if votes can be apportioned like that, but I would love to see those numbers. Out of 19000 ballots, there would be 38,000 punched candidates... I would like to see the distribution of the 38,000 votes.

------------------
Is it any coincidence that the Cato is the only Rocket with a temperature scale named after him?

I didnt think so!!!!

heypartner · 11-10-2000, 12:24 PM

dreamshake...I miss you over in the Game Action threads. You let me off too easy last exchange.

You are exerting too much energy over here. It would be sad if you got placed on IR.

JayZ750 · 11-10-2000, 12:30 PM

Ive heard both 15,000 and now 7,000 and im certainly not going ot believe the 7,000 number based on the argument that why should you just beleive what some politician gives you (15,000)when this is just another number (7,000)a politician gave you.

Basically, people cant vote for 2 candidates. I just really cant understand how people can be that retarded as to actually punch two holes and then turn in your ballot without getting a new one. Would someone explain to me how you make that mistake and still think your ballot will be counted.

------------------
Remember.... You are not really drunk until you must hold on to the grass to keep from falling off the earth.

Dreamshake · 11-10-2000, 12:35 PM

LOL heypartner...

I have been so on top of this vote its been nuts.

I have all but given up on arguing with you in the game action thread. Some of us dont have the ability to create flash plays for everyone to see.

JayZ...Thousands of people did indeed try to get a second ballot but were told such things as

"Your only allowed to vote once"
"Just drop you vote off"
"Your not allowed to recieve another ballot"
More tid bits. Only W Palm Beach, in all 67 counties in FL used the Butterfly ballot. And it IS in fact true that the Republicans over estimated the 96 vote by about 10,000 discarded votes. And it is indeed FL law that Gore was to have his punch hole second.

------------------
"I have amazing, powers of observation"...Pink

[This message has been edited by Dreamshake (edited November 10, 2000).]

heypartner · 11-10-2000, 12:46 PM

hehe...Flash helps me distract the masses away from my true agenda of Rudy-ball misinformation. It is my subliminibal secret weapon. Rudy buys me a drink at Kinneally's everytime I make a flashy play.

DAROckets · 11-10-2000, 12:48 PM

7,000 or 15,000 doesn't matter.It should have been a major issue in this county and Palm B co.'s elected officialls are to blame.

You know what,being the great country this is Palm Beach residents have the right to LEARN how to vote,go back to the poll's and get rid of all of em !

Also the fact that these people were old doesn't tread water either.I mean to live that many years you must have voted at least once or twice...geez...and if you have trouble seeing BRING YOUR DAMM GLASSES !

------------------

DAROckets · 11-10-2000, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by heypartner:
hehe...Flash helps me distract the masses away from my true agenda of Rudy-ball misinformation. It is my subliminibal secret weapon. Rudy buys me a drink at Kinneally's everytime I make a flashy play.

Damm that was funny

------------------

outlaw · 11-10-2000, 12:56 PM

it really sickens me the lack of sympathy these people are getting. you're going to be old one day too.

SpaceCity · 11-10-2000, 02:16 PM

15,000 or 7,000 tossed votes in 96 never mattered because the election was never close enough for either of those figures to matter.

The problem is that SOMEONE knew that there is a history of problems in that county with those ballots.

It should never have gotten to this point. They should have recognized the problen and worked towrds fixing it. How long has this gone on and why wasn't anything done about it. Basically it says that everyone but a large portion of Palm Beach County voters had no say and no one seemed to care about it. This is not a party problem. This is a problem with the system. Both sides are equally responsible for allowing it to continue. But now all of a sudden, Gore will become a casualty of an imperfect system. The people will not have their say. Bush will be president by technicality, not popular vote.

------------------
RocketFuel is dead!

AhPook · 11-10-2000, 02:35 PM

I think all the votes that got thrown out were double punched (or more, I guess).

There is a problem with the punch cards in that if you don't punch the hole all the way through, a piece of paper stays stuck to the ballot and could invalidate your vote (ie, it thinks you didn't vote at all for that race).

So, on the recount, these pieces fall off from the handling, and the vote ends up being counted the second time through.

Incidentally, the butterfly ballot gets a bad rap everywhere it's used, but no one does anything about it because they are inexpensive. Go figure.

------------------
Brought to you by the letter M.

TraJ · 11-10-2000, 03:03 PM

I think we need to get one thing straight: At this point, whoever becomes the president will be so as the result of a technicality. There is absolutely no way to ensure "fairness." Not even a re-vote would do that.

There have been a lot of talks about irregularities -- people being given five minutes to vote or being hindered in some other way. The NAACP is doing their best to find problems. They don't seem to be pointing out that the networks declared Gore the winner of Florida when some of the polls were still open in the state (central timezone). To me, that's something that needs to be addressed. The news media should not be able to influnce an election, but I believe that's exactly what they do, and not many people want to talk about that. Has anyone heard the Bush campaign crying about that? I haven't.

We don't have a perfect system; no one can deny that. I would not be happy if the shoe was on the other foot. But the constitution does not grant people the right outcome. It grants them the right to vote. The people in W. Palm Beach exercised that right and blew it. THEY caused Al Gore the presidency, not the system.

------------------

ChrisP · 11-10-2000, 03:32 PM

TraJ is right that this race is so close that only technicalities (or civil war) will decide it. Even the popular vote is such a slim margin that you can't really call it "the will of the people." Does anybody think that the popular vote counts wouldn't change in one direction or the other if a national recount was done? I think the real casualty of this whole situation will be the candidate who wins the election - he will forever have an asterisk next to his championship. Sorry, what were we talking about?

Oh, the ballots that were thrown out... I agree that the number of ballots that have both Buchanan and Gore selected could be very telling in the whole issue of an allegedly confusing ballot. I think they should take that into consideration when deciding what to do about the supposedly miscast votes. However, unless it can be shown that the ballot was intentionally confusing, I still don't see how they can fairly correct the situation for this election.

I didn't vote for Bush but I'm willing to concede that he won according to the rules of the game.

------------------

outlaw · 11-10-2000, 05:18 PM

Anyone who stayed home because the media called Florida doesn't get my sympathy. FL had a close Senate race that had nothing to do with the Electoral college. I went to vote here in Texas even though the media said Gore had no chance of winning it.

Also, calling Florida for Gore early could have hurt Gore in Oregon, Nevada, etc. as Nader supporters decided they could vote for Ralph then.

Mango · 11-10-2000, 07:35 PM

Dreamshake...et al,

I have heard the arguments that the butterfly ballot is illegal under Florida election law and some redress should be made. I have also heard about the voided ballots issue and that they should have some bearing in the matter. It has been mentioned several times that there was a warning that ballots incorrectly punched would be voided under Florida election law.

The case that Gore, the DNC and you present is weakened by the flip flopping on which parts of the Florida election law that they want invoked and which parts they want to ignore. If they want to file a lawsuit under Florida election law about an illegal butterfly ballot, do so, but they shouldn't say a word about voided ballots on an emotional level because that would be inconsistent.

Mango

------------------
Test Your NBA Trade Ideas
1. Put new topics in the proper forum.
Things happening in the rest of the NBA
2. Use clear wording for new threads.
3. No duplicate threads
4. Conduct yourself as an adult.
The Serious Police are watching.
Donate Blood or be assimilated!

DAROckets · 11-11-2000, 01:15 AM

I'm old already and if I have sympathy or not doesn't matter.The fact is that they had their vote and screwed it up ! I've yet to see one person from Palm Beach stand up and take a little of the blame.They elected the county officials who screwed up,sorry bout your luck.Now let's move on.

------------------

JayZ750 · 11-11-2000, 01:26 AM

THat is kinda my point. All htese people are rallying and complaining, but not once have they said we screwed up, were sorry, BUT you made it very confusing and that is a big problem. Instead they just compain, complain, and complain some more. Ill give sympathy where its due.

As far as people going back to ask for ballots or as far as the exact number of ballots thrown out this year or in 96, I have trouble believing any number and I certainly hope no one here just finds a number that sounds more reasonable to their stance (i.e-cause they are a democrat or a republican) and attach on to it. Remember Wednesday morning there were cries of missing ballot boxes and boxes found ina church and a school, but of course that turned out to be nothing. Im just saying, maybe these people went back and asked and were denied and maybe they didnt...ill wait till nobody has an agenda at stake anymore before deciding which i beleive.

I just know that something is definitely fishy here and it smells bad on BOTH sides.

------------------
Remember.... You are not really drunk until you must hold on to the grass to keep from falling off the earth.

**Clutch** · 11-11-2000, 01:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by shanna:
Out of 19000 ballots, there would be 38,000 punched candidates... I would like to see the distribution of the 38,000 votes.

I don't think it's safe to assume every one of those has 2 holes punched... some may have none (that possible? I don't know) and some idiots may have just punched them all.

I do agree that I would like to see how many of these 19,000 ballots were Buchanan-Gore ballots, and only Buchanan-Gore ballots. That's the only possible combo that could prove there was some confusion.

------------------
NOTHING BUT .NET
CLUTCHCITY.NET