There have been a lot of great opinions posted about the relative values of different players. Just thought I would add some stats to the discussion, for the convenience and reference of anyone who's interested. All info from 82games.com for this season. W/L when the player plays in a game Yao 15-15 [16?] McGrady 11-14 Brooks 6-2 Alston 17-10 Hayes 15-14 Head 15-10 Scola 16-14 Battier 18-12 Francis 6-3 Wells 11-17 James 14-12 This stat is probably skewed for end-of-bench players because they play during garbage time. Net points v. opponent per 48 minutes Yao 1.2 McGrady -0.4 (off. 95.8, def. 96.2) Brooks 10.8 Alston 4.9 Hayes 2.8 Head 3.2 Scola 2.8 Battier 2.4 Francis -1.2 (off. 91.5, def. 92.7) Wells 0.1 James -3.5 (off. 93.7, def. 97.3) Shots in first 10 seconds of shot clock Yao 27% McGrady 36% Brooks 34% Alston 37% Hayes 45% Head 30% Scola 33% Battier 32% Francis 28% Wells 40% James 29% FG% in last 3 seconds of shot clock Yao 15% McGrady 9% Brooks 10% Alston 16% Hayes 6% Head 19% Scola 11% Battier 16% Francis 23% Wells 13% James 15% Offense: pts per 100 possessions, on court vs. off court Yao -3.4 McGrady 2.2 Brooks 1.7 Alston 2.9 Hayes -2.4 Head -1.5 Scola 0.8 Battier 4.5 Francis -2.5 Wells 1.1 James -1.6 Defense: pts per 100 possessions, on court v. off court [positive number is bad in this case] Yao 0.3 McGrady 6.9 Brooks -11.4 Alston -5.4 Hayes -6.2 Head -2.4 Scola -2.3 Battier 0.2 Francis 1.9 Wells 2.7 James 6.6 Net points per 100 possessions when player is on the court Yao -3.7 McGrady -4.7 Brooks 13.2 Alston 8.3 Hayes 3.8 Head 0.9 Scola 3.1 Battier 4.3 Francis -4.4 Wells -1.6 James -8.3
I want to clarify that W/L stat. It's not team wins/losses in games a players plays in. Rather, W corresponds to number of games in which we outscored the opponent with the player on the court, and L corresponds to number of games in which we were outscored with the player on the court.
No there hasn't. There's been a lot of whining and b****ing about who likes who more and why player X is the scourge of the Earth. I'm at a loss as to why anybody thinks we should get rid of Yao or Tracy. We're a better team with both of them. They just have to be used properly.
This notion that we can trade Yao or Tracy and somehow come out of it as a better team is pure fantasy. People are dreaming off potential trades for top-20 players that would never happen. One need only look at the history of this league. How often has trading a player of Yao's or McGrady's caliber resulted in an improvement in the short term? I can't recall it ever happening.
Sorry but I have to comment on my own post It looks from these numbers like Yao and Tracy have been two of the least effective players for the team this year (not counting SF and James, of course, and maybe Bonzi?). I know we still need T-Mac and Yao. I just wonder if it is precisely THEY who are having the most trouble adapting to Adelman's new system. I can see both players adapting in the future. But it's possible that, surprise of surprises, JVG actually suited both of them to a tee.
It's a surprising result, but you just can't draw that conclusion. The Rockets, as a team, have not been effective; and that's going to reflect most on the players who play the biggest minutes against the opposing team's best lineups.
Take Tracy's 11-14 "W/L" record. That doesn't mean that Tracy has played in 25 games, and the Rockets have gone 11-14 in those games. What it means is that there have been 11 games where the Rockets outscored the opposing team specifically when Tracy was on the court (and not on the bench resting). And there have been 14 games where the opposing team has outscored the Rockets when Tracy was on the court. It's a more useful way of look at W/L for players who play significant minutes, because it doesn't take into account minutes when the player was on the bench.
Depends on how you define "short-term". Gail Goodrich was a career 18.6 ppg player who was traded to the NO Jazz in '76 for what eventually turned into Magic Johnson in '79. Ed Macauley and Cliff Hagan where established players who helped the Bob Pettit-led Hawks win the title in '58. They were traded for the draft rights to Bill Russell in the '56 draft. We have the benefit of hindsight for Russell. There are others, but the most applicable... Grant Hill signs with Detroit and is traded to Orlando for Ben Wallace and Chucky Atkins (2000): Wallace goes on to lead Detroit to a title. Hill goes on to 4 ankle surgeries. Point being, if McGrady has peaked due to a high-mileaged body, he may not be fall into your "Trading a Top 20 player" theory.
True, but in Tracy's case, every single stat I've seen points to the same thing: he has regressed really badly on defense this year, to the point that it completely negates whatever increased offensive efficiency he is enjoying under Adelman. Yao's numbers are not surprising, considering that for most of the season, Adelman has struggled with figuring out how to use him effectively. But T-Mac could (and should) be better than what he is exhibiting. Like I did say earlier though, it does appear that the coaching staff are definitely paying attention to these same stats we're seeing -- and that's why Mike James has been demoted to the deep end of the bench while Aaron Brooks is starting to get plenty of playing time.
Actually the Rox are 2-4 when McGrady got a DNP this season. (Losses to Spurs, Suns, Nuggets, Golden State). Thanks for the clarification, durvasa!
I think the 16-47 is since the two have played together, BTW, not this year. Anyone know what the record is with McGrady, but no Yao over the last few years?
I don't think draft picks should count because they are about "potential." There is always a BIG element of luck associated with it. They are, as you put it, "hindsight" values. The point here is that Hill was damaged good. The trade worked for Detroit not because Wallace was a better talent, but because Hill was never healthy in Orlando. The comparison would be valid only if McGrady's injuries prevent him from performing to a point his production is less than a top caliber player, which may or may not be true. I think players like McGrady and Camby are so frustrating to their fans because they are injury-prone but not so much (like Hill) that you can say, "Let's give up on him."
By short term, I mean this year or next year. That's the window. Most people who are saying we should trade Yao or Tracy are assuming the team will immediately get better, which is just nonsense. Grant Hill trade is a pretty good one, but the Piston's record dropped from 45 to 32 wins that year. Is anyone here calling for Tracy to be traded willing to take a 32 win season? I'd also say the Pistons lucked out with Ben Wallace. It's not something that's easily reproduceable. The point stands. Stars have been traded many times in the history of the league. Almost never has it resulted in immediate improvement. Unless people are willing to tear this team down and build it back up, trading Yao or T-Mac simply isn't a viable option.
This post went up before the Celtics game. Now comparing the game to the numbers a little: Head IS a good pressure shooter for us (the numbers say). But he's not a good pressure ball handler (I say). WHY was James ever in the game? Perhaps the best closers are Alston, Brooks/Head, Battier, Hayes, Scola. Yao seems necessary as an inside threat, but the numbers I listed aren't that good for him. The Rox record with Yao in his present role isn't that good either this year. I think what this says is that the Rockets should *intend* to get more points from other players than Yao. Yao plays an important role just by drawing so much attention, but he has rarely got enough shots off in his career to really carry a team. Wells has offense but these numbers still suggest he hurts us with his defense. When he's focused he's really good, but he's often out to lunch. Still, he is almost the only Rocket who can get to the rim. Maybe what the Rockets need is someone who relentlessly attacks the rim.
You are the epitome of what is wrong with this board. You posted this in eight threads in two minutes. It doesn't make sense, it's not even readable. CLUTCH PLEASE BAN THIS ASSH0LE. vic hokuto you should take a hike.
I know stats can interfere with passionate opinions at times, but the numbers I posted and the conclusions I drew from them seem right. Rafer is one of the top five performers on the Rockets, and Bonzi appears to be fools gold because his screw-ups more than offset his offense. Yao even looks like a liability this year and the team seems to go on runs when he leaves the game.
