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James Cameron vs. Christianity

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by KingCheetah, Feb 24, 2007.

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  1. KingCheetah

    KingCheetah Contributing Member

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    This is an amazing discovery if true.
    ______

    Jesus: Tales from the Crypt

    In a new documentary, Producer Cameron and his director, Simcha Jacobovici, make the starting claim that Jesus wasn't resurrected -- the cornerstone of Christian faith -- and that his burial cave was discovered near Jerusalem. And, get this, Jesus sired a son with Mary Magdelene.

    Let's go back 27 years, when Israeli construction workers were gouging out the foundations for a new building in the industrial park in the Talpiyot, a Jerusalem suburb. of Jerusalem. The earth gave way, revealing a 2,000 year old cave with 10 stone caskets. Archologists were summoned, and the stone caskets carted away for examination. It took 20 years for experts to decipher the names on the ten tombs. They were: Jesua, son of Joseph, Mary, Mary, Mathew, Jofa and Judah, son of Jesua.

    Israel's prominent archeologist Professor Amos Kloner didn't associate the crypt with the New Testament Jesus. His father, after all, was a humble carpenter who couldn't afford a luxury crypt for his family. And all were common Jewish names.

    There was also this little inconvenience that a few miles away, in the old city of Jerusalem, Christians for centuries had been worshipping the empty tomb of Christ at the Church of the Holy Sepulcher. Christ's resurrection, after all, is the main foundation of the faith, proof that a boy born to a carpenter's wife in a manger is the Son of God.

    But film-makers Cameron and Jacobovici claim to have amassed evidence through DNA tests, archeological evidence and Biblical studies, that the 10 coffins belong to Jesus and his family.

    full article
     
    #1 KingCheetah, Feb 24, 2007
  2. Master Baiter

    Master Baiter Contributing Member

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    Link doesn't work for me yo.

    Also, there have been people saying that Jesus was married to MM and had kids for a long time now.
     
    #2 Master Baiter, Feb 24, 2007
  3. KingCheetah

    KingCheetah Contributing Member

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    #3 KingCheetah, Feb 24, 2007
  4. KingCheetah

    KingCheetah Contributing Member

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    Here's a better article from Discovery and a web page on the documentary -- The lost tomb of Jesus.
    _____

    "It doesn't get bigger than this. We've done our homework; we've made the case; and now it's time for the debate to begin."


    Jesus Family Tomb Believed Found

    ...

    At least four leading epigraphers have corroborated the ossuary inscriptions for the documentary, according to the Discovery Channel.

    Frank Moore Cross, a professor emeritus in the Department of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations at Harvard University, told Discovery News, "The inscriptions are from the Herodian Period (which occurred from around 1 B.C. to 1 A.D.). The use of limestone ossuaries and the varied script styles are characteristic of that time."

    Jodi Magness, associate department chair of religious studies at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, told Discovery News that, based on the New Testament writings, "Jesus likely lived during the first century A.D."

    In addition to the "Judah son of Jesus" inscription, which is written in Aramaic on one of the ossuaries, another limestone burial box is labeled in Aramaic with "Jesus Son of Joseph." Another bears the Hebrew inscription "Maria," a Latin version of "Miriam," or, in English, "Mary." Yet another ossuary inscription, written in Hebrew, reads "Matia," the original Hebrew word for "Matthew." Only one of the inscriptions is written in Greek. It reads, "Mariamene e Mara," which can be translated as, "Mary known as the master."

    Francois Bovon, professor of the history of religion at Harvard University, told Discovery News, "Mariamene, or Mariamne, probably was the actual name given to Mary Magdalene."

    Bovon explained that he and a colleague discovered a fourteenth century copy in Greek of a fourth century text that contains the most complete version of the "Acts of Philip" ever found. Although not included in the Bible, the "Acts of Philip" mentions the apostles and Mariamne, sister of the apostle Philip.

    "When Philip is weak, she is strong," Bovon said. "She likely was a great teacher who even inspired her own sect of followers, called Mariamnists, who existed from around the 2nd to the 3rd century."

    DNA Analysis

    Jacobovici, director, producer and writer of "The Lost Tomb of Jesus," and his team obtained two sets of samples from the ossuaries for DNA and chemical analysis. The first set consisted of bits of matter taken from the "Jesus Son of Joseph" and "Mariamene e Mara" ossuaries. The second set consisted of patina — a chemical film encrustation on one of the limestone boxes.

    The human remains were analyzed by Carney Matheson, a scientist at the Paleo-DNA Laboratory at Lakehead University in Ontario, Canada. Mitochondrial DNA examination determined the individual in the Jesus ossuary and the person in the ossuary linked to Mary Magdalene were not related.

    Since tombs normally contain either blood relations or spouses, Jacobovici and his team suggest it is possible Jesus and Mary Magdalene were a couple. "Judah," whom they indicate may have been their son, could have been the "lad" described in the Gospel of John as sleeping in Jesus' lap at the Last Supper.

    Robert Genna, director of the Suffolk County Crime Laboratory in New York, analyzed both the patina taken from the Talpiot Tomb and chemical residue obtained from the "James" ossuary, which was also found around 1980, but subsequently disappeared and resurfaced in the antiquities market. Although controversy surrounds this burial box, Genna found that the two patinas matched.

    "The samples were consistent with each other," Genna told Discovery News.

    Upon examining the tomb, the filmmakers determined a space exists that would have fit the "James" ossuary. Given the patina match and this observation, Jacobovici theorizes the lost burial box could, in fact, be the "James" ossuary.

    A possible argument against the Talpiot Tomb being the Jesus Family Tomb is that the collection of names on the ossuary inscriptions could be coincidental.

    But Andrey Feuerverger, professor of statistics and mathematics at the University of Toronto, recently conducted a study addressing the probabilities that will soon be published in a leading statistical journal.

    Feuerverger multiplied the instances that each name appeared during the tomb's time period with the instances of every other name. He initially found "Jesus Son of Joseph" appeared once out of 190 times, Mariamne appeared once out of 160 times and so on.

    To be conservative, he next divided the resulting numbers by 25 percent, a statistical standard, and further divided the results by 1,000 to attempt to account for all tombs — even those that have not been uncovered — that could have existed in first century Jerusalem.

    The study concludes that the odds are at least 600 to 1 in favor of the Talpiot Tomb being the Jesus Family Tomb. In other words, the conclusion works 599 times out of 600.

    Another Tomb?

    The researchers discovered a second, as-yet unexplored tomb about 65 1/2 feet from the Talpiot Tomb. During the documentary, they introduced a robotic camera into this second tomb, which captured the first-ever recorded footage of an undisturbed burial cave from Jesus' time. The team speculates that this other tomb could contain the remains of additional family members, or even disciples, though further examination and analysis are needed.


    full article
     
    #4 KingCheetah, Feb 25, 2007
  5. MadMax

    MadMax Contributing Member

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    This is interesting stuff. I've already set my DVR for this. I saw the archaeologist on TV this morning. He said he wasn't sure why people thought this made the resurrection impossible.

    I know when the James ossuary was found (which read, James brother of Jesus) archaeologists said these names were so common that there would be no way to know for sure.

    Also...not sure if it's been pointed out, but this find actually happened in the 1980's. The archaeologist who ACTUALLY discovered these ossuaries contends that this is all a money-making deal with little science behind it.

    I certainly come in to this subject with bias that I can't deny. I'm certain we all do. But I look forward to hearing what is to be said regarding it.

    http://www.breitbart.com/news/2007/02/26/D8NHFDRG3.html

    Scholars Criticize New Jesus Documentary

    Feb 26 10:03 AM US/Eastern


    By MARSHALL THOMPSON
    Associated Press Writer


    JERUSALEM (AP) -- Archaeologists and clergymen in the Holy Land derided claims in a new documentary produced by the Oscar-winning director James Cameron that contradict major Christian tenets.
    "The Lost Tomb of Christ," which the Discovery Channel will run on March 4, argues that 10 ancient ossuaries _ small caskets used to store bones _ discovered in a suburb of Jerusalem in 1980 may have contained the bones of Jesus and his family, according to a press release issued by the Discovery Channel.

    One of the caskets even bears the title, "Judah, son of Jesus," hinting that Jesus may have had a son. And the very fact that Jesus had an ossuary would contradict the Christian belief that he was resurrected and ascended to heaven.

    Most Christians believe Jesus' body spent three days at the site of the Church of the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem's Old City. The burial site identified in Cameron's documentary is in a southern Jerusalem neighborhood nowhere near the church.

    In 1996, when the BBC aired a short documentary on the same subject, archaeologists challenged the claims. Amos Kloner, the first archaeologist to examine the site, said the idea fails to hold up by archaeological standards but makes for profitable television.

    "They just want to get money for it," Kloner said.

    The claims have raised the ire of Christian leaders in the Holy Land.

    "The historical, religious and archaeological evidence show that the place where Christ was buried is the Church of the Resurrection," said Attallah Hana, a Greek Orthodox clergyman in Jerusalem. The documentary, he said, "contradicts the religious principles and the historic and spiritual principles that we hold tightly to."

    Stephen Pfann, a biblical scholar at the University of the Holy Land in Jerusalem who was interviewed in the documentary, said the film's hypothesis holds little weight.

    "I don't think that Christians are going to buy into this," Pfann said. "But skeptics, in general, would like to see something that pokes holes into the story that so many people hold dear."

    "How possible is it?" Pfann said. "On a scale of one through 10 _ 10 being completely possible _ it's probably a one, maybe a one and a half."

    Pfann is even unsure that the name "Jesus" on the caskets was read correctly. He thinks it's more likely the name "Hanun."

    Kloner also said the filmmakers' assertions are false.

    "It was an ordinary middle-class Jerusalem burial cave," Kloner said. "The names on the caskets are the most common names found among Jews at the time."

    Archaeologists also balk at the filmmaker's claim that the James Ossuary _ the center of a famous antiquities fraud in Israel _ might have originated from the same cave. In 2005, Israel charged five suspects with forgery in connection with the infamous bone box.

    "I don't think the James Ossuary came from the same cave," said Dan Bahat, an archaeologist at Bar-Ilan University. "If it were found there, the man who made the forgery would have taken something better. He would have taken Jesus."

    Although the documentary makers claim to have found the tomb of Jesus, the British Broadcasting Corporation beat them to the punch by 11 years.

    Osnat Goaz, a spokeswoman for the Israeli government agency responsible for archaeology, declined to comment before the documentary was aired.
     
    #5 MadMax, Feb 26, 2007
  6. weslinder

    weslinder Contributing Member

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    Ah, just another Jewish conspiracy. Although if Discovery Channel's putting it on, I'll give it a look.
     
    #6 weslinder, Feb 26, 2007
  7. Dionysus

    Dionysus Member

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    I don't think there exists any physical evidence that will dissuade Christians. Religion isn't based on the rational but on faith, so why would rational things dissuade them? There already exists a plethora of reasons why Christianity isn't true (same evidence as to why Zeus isn't real), why would this discovery, if true, change anyone's mind when other arguments and evidences haven't?
     
    #7 Dionysus, Feb 26, 2007
  8. Sishir Chang

    Sishir Chang Contributing Member

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    I had heard about this a few years ago and remembering seeing some sort of special about where Jesus was bury that cited this grave. I think there were a few other locations considered also besides the Church of the Sepulchre.

    I agree with Mad Max though on whether people should look at this as a sign that the Resurrection was impossible. The Resurrection is a faith belief and short of building a time machine there's no way to absolutely prove it didn't happen. Even if this is the historical Jesus' tomb who's to say the disciples didn't see Jesus again or that he didn't rise and ascend to heaven. I'm not sure Jesus' physical body is as important as the spiritual belief.
     
    #8 Sishir Chang, Feb 26, 2007
  9. MadMax

    MadMax Contributing Member

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    just depends on who you ask.
     
    #9 MadMax, Feb 26, 2007
  10. rhester

    rhester Contributing Member

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    If we find the bones of Jesus and we can't find Osama Bin Laden I'll be upset! :cool:
     
    #10 rhester, Feb 26, 2007
  11. MadMax

    MadMax Contributing Member

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    that's awesome! :D
     
    #11 MadMax, Feb 26, 2007
  12. Sishir Chang

    Sishir Chang Contributing Member

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    Jesus' bones aren't actively trying to hide. If they are then you have proof of the Resurrection. ;)
     
    #12 Sishir Chang, Feb 26, 2007
  13. MadMax

    MadMax Contributing Member

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    are you sure? No Worries posted this interesting find in another thread:

    [​IMG]
     
    #13 MadMax, Feb 26, 2007
  14. DaDakota

    DaDakota If you want to know, just ask!
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    How interesting.

    Does it mean the resurrection did not happen? Not really, it still could have happened, or it could have been a dream.

    Either way it is about faith.

    A lot of people believed that Jesus was just a man, and this would certainly coaberate that belief.

    Watch the press conference now

    They are talking about the potential of cloning Jesus...wow !

    DD
     
    #14 DaDakota, Feb 26, 2007
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2007
  15. DaDakota

    DaDakota If you want to know, just ask!
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    BUMP....PRESS CONFERENCE LINK IN MY PREVIOUS POST...very interesting.

    UGh...it just ended...

    DD
     
    #15 DaDakota, Feb 26, 2007
  16. No Worries

    No Worries Contributing Member

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    Unitarians for one do not believe in the Holy Trinity. This implies that they do not believe that Jesus was God. (Unitarians so the joke goes will knock on your door and tell you that they are not sure what they believe ;))
     
    #16 No Worries, Feb 26, 2007
  17. DaDakota

    DaDakota If you want to know, just ask!
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    I think there are Christian groups who dispute the resurrection.

    The real question is how will the church react to this stuff? It basically could question their core beliefs.

    My guess is they will dispute it without looking at the empirical data, don't want to disrupt the apple cart.

    DD
     
    #17 DaDakota, Feb 26, 2007
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2007
  18. rhester

    rhester Contributing Member

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    This shouldn't be too hard to prove, just see if the DNA in the bones matches the DNA of Joseph. If it does then it isn't the bones of Jesus. ;)
     
    #18 rhester, Feb 26, 2007
  19. LongTimeFan

    LongTimeFan Contributing Member

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    When is this set to air? And if true, wouldn't this give more credit to Islam? (re: Jesus was just a prophet)
     
    #19 LongTimeFan, Feb 26, 2007
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2007
  20. pirc1

    pirc1 Contributing Member

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    It is all a matter of faith. You either believe it or you do not.
     
    #20 pirc1, Feb 26, 2007
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