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Flip Saunders: Yao gets tired in the 4th qtr.

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by tiger0330, Nov 19, 2006.

  1. tiger0330

    tiger0330 Contributing Member

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    Its obvious but every opposing team is trying to wear us down. JVGs short rotation is partially to blame, we have the most DNPs of any team in the league and JVG better make an adjustment soon or these 4th qtr collapses are here to stay.

    http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061119/SPORTS0102/611190333/1127

    Tough 'D' returns, Pistons rally for 2nd straight win

    Vincent Goodwill / Special to The Detroit News

    Paul Sancya/Associated Press

    Pistons 104, Rockets 92

    Get Home Delivery
    AUBURN HILLS — That “switch” Flip Saunders has referred to had a little juice in the fourth quarter against the Houston Rockets, and the Pistons pulled away for a 104-92 victory at The Palace on Saturday night.

    Richard Hamilton led the Pistons with 30 points, but it was their trademark defense making a triumphant return that sparked the win. In the fourth quarter, the defense of Rasheed Wallace and reserve Flip Murray ignited a decisive 13-0 run — Wallace with his strong play against Yao Ming and Murray jump-starting the fast-break.

    Yao Ming scored 30 points and Tracy McGrady, who you’ll remember lit the Pistons up for 43 in his last Palace visit, scored 24. But both were left ineffective and frustrated in the final 12 minutes.

    “I told our guys, ‘Yao gets tired in the fourth quarter,’ ” Saunders said. “I told them to keep fighting and running and try to wear them down.”

    The Pistons now are back to .500. After their worst start in six years, they’ve two in a row with impressive fourth-quarter showings.

    The Pistons began the fourth trailing by two points. And the lead see-sawed early, with three ties and five lead changes in the first four minutes before the Pistons applied the clamps.

    Ming visibly was bothered by the Pistons’ physicality, as he missed easy hooks he’d been making earlier in the game, had a traveling called on him, and had the ball stolen and a shot blocked by Wallace.

    McGrady was shut down in the fourth by Hamilton, whose overplaying style confused McGrady. After the 9:48 mark, McGrady didn’t make another field goal until after the Pistons’ lead reached double figures.

    “I thought Rip did as good a job defensively as you could do on Tracy in that type of situation,” Saunders said.

    “We’ve just got to find some counter moves,” said McGrady said, who averages 19.1 points in his career against Detroit. “Twenty-eight points for them and fourteen for us (in the fourth quarter) is really uncalled for.”

    Murray had a steal, two rebounds and nine points as he played the entire fourth quarter. He was all over the passing lanes, and picked his spots offensively to give a needed boost.

    “I played aggressively offensively and I have to take advantage of my chances,” Murray said.

    Chauncey Billups and Hamilton were the only Pistons in sync early , combining for 16 points on 7-of-10 shooting as the Pistons had a 23-14 lead. Billups finished with 23 points and nine assists.

    Then, it became a McGrady showcase, as he single-handedly kept the Rockets close, hitting his first six shots on an array of moves and drives. The Rockets went on a 23-3 run from the end of the first quarter to the middle of the second, surging to an 11-point lead.

    Jeff Van Gundy, the Houston coach who once was fined heavily for his comments about the officials’ treatment of Ming, must have been happy seeing Ming at the line early and often.

    He was effective in getting the Pistons big men in foul trouble, with Rasheed Wallace and Nazr Mohammed having three fouls each in the first half. Ming had 19 points in the first half, and his 12 free throws signified his aggressiveness. He finished with a career-high 20 attempts.

    “When you’re not allowed to touch a guy who 7-foot-5 and 320 pounds, it is tough to guard somebody down there,” Saunders said.

    The lead went to 13 before the Pistons got going.

    Jason Maxiell infused energy with a tip-dunk, off a Hamilton miss, and taking a charge, McGrady’s third foul. The Pistons went on a 20-9 run in the last 5:11 to bring them within two, a run capped off by Tayshaun Prince’s long jumper just as time expired. Hamilton continued his hot shooting during the comeback, finishing the half with 17 points.

    “The big thing was getting it down to two before the half,” Prince said. “We have to find a way to stay active for an entire game.”

    McGrady went to the bench with his fourth foul early in the third quarter and never found his rhythm again.

    For the Pistons, it was about finding a rhythm when it counted.

    “I want to have the juice when we start the game,” Saunders said. “Our energy level is getting (us) back to playing Piston basketball.”
     
  2. Van Gundier

    Van Gundier Member

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    Yao Ming played only 36 minutes last night. And he was resting during the first 4 minutes of the 4th quarter (in addition to the break between the 3rd and 4th qtr) before he came in and sucked.

    How much more rest do you want him to have? The entire 4th quarter?
     
  3. heypartner

    heypartner Contributing Member

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    so, you're saying that A + B = 'pear'
     
  4. zksb09

    zksb09 Member

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    I tend to agree. Yao has improved his stamina, but he has clearly not "executed" in the fourth quarter, especially after the Heat game, which seems to have taken a toll on him. Playing 36-38 minutes, he's been the focus of the Rockets' offense & has to work hard just to get the ball, especially if he is being fronted.
     
  5. thesaint

    thesaint Member

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    Rockets signed Bonzi for a reason, THIRD SCORER and take the load off Tmac n Yao for scoring, but JVG is too stubborn to play him. Even Bill Worrell last night after the game mentioned and was a bit upset over Bonzi not playing and said that Rockets could really use a proven third scorer when teams are shutting down yao n tmac.

    Also Novak could have helped in all the losses with his ability to shoot consistently unlike other players. Him on the floor not only helps Rox with his 3 pointers but also avoids double teams on Tmac n Yao.

    Yeah we have a wining record right now but i think with all these losses could have been easy wins for us if JVG would have made the right decisions.
     
  6. canoner2002

    canoner2002 Contributing Member

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    His 36 minutes is MUCH more intense than 36 minutes for Tmac or any other player.

    It is 36 minutes of wrestling and boxing. For other players, it is 36 minutes of running. I'd take 36 minutes on treadmill over 36 minutes in a boxing ring.
     
  7. zhao1109

    zhao1109 Contributing Member

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    When YAO and TMAC got shut down in the 4th, JVG need send some good shoters on the floor. Last night game, our spacing was horrible. most people jam in the paint and top of arc to stop TMAC and YAO. PnR didnt work either. JVG cost us aonther game.

    but again, if YAO wants to be a great player, he needs to play 36 mins per game and with good fourth. Coaching staff and YAO need to find a way to figure out. TMAC also needs to understand his role in the game too. Last night I didnt see any chemistry between YAO/TMAC. both of them kinda lost in the last qtr: pass? shoot? PnR?
     
  8. darkmanx79

    darkmanx79 Member

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    It's simple wear and tear...Yao has been playing constantly since his rookie year, this past summer was supposed to be his year off - but instead his dumba$$ decides to play AGAIN (for the 3 consecutive summer, I think). He logs heavy minutes year long...not just the 82 game stretch. Relax...if you think about, no super star is putting up staggering numbers right now (besides Arenas) - it's early, the super stars are gauging how sorry the scrubs...I mean surrounding players are...once it sets in who they can and can't go to as the season progresses things will change. Ming just needs to work on his conditioning - he'll be fine.
     
  9. richirich

    richirich Contributing Member

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    I've been doing some stat analysis of the games so far - not enough time to do it right - maybe Morey will start posting and share his thoughts.

    Take away the Heat and Mavs 4q's and we are a -54 in the 4Q in 8 games, or an avg of -7 for the 4Q. Record is 4-4 for those games. In the losses we are -28, in the wins excluding Mavs & Heat we are -26. We are consistent.

    We are 3-1 with Hayes in for substantial minutes, 1-3 with Hayes out or playing only 8 min at Utah. Hayes did not start against the Jazz and played only the 8 min, and Boozer ate our lunch on the boards as well as scoring.

    Of the wins we let the Bucks Knicks and Bulls back into the game in the 4Q. Of the losses all but the Jazz were lost in the 4Q.

    By position you would expect guards to score 40% of the points, maybe a little more since most teams do not have strong big men scorers.

    Rockets have given up 50.6% of the opps' points to guards. Best defense was the Mavs, Grizz and Heat games: 38% 31% and 44% of total pts scored by guards. Worst Bucks, Pistons and Bulls - 70%, 60% and 54%.
    Redd, Billups & Hamilton & Gordon. Chris Paul had 16 assists.

    82games.com has Alston, Head and Snyder all clustered together as negative Roland ratings from -3.1 to -4.8. If you count McGrady as a guard he is an atypical low +2.9.

    Formula for our opponents: Wear us down in 4Q, make Yao & Tmac tired on offense, attack the guards at the other end. Thank your God that Hayes is hurt. Pray that the refs let you play in the 4Q when your Rip Hamilton type player is putting his hands all over Tmac (Rafer would have fouled out in 12 minutes playing like that).

    My conclusion: Get Hayes healthy. Keep practicing Novak and Billy until they are ready according to Gundy's "standards". Put Bonzi on a fast for a week then start playing him. Keep playing McGrady back into game shape and improving his mediocre Roland rating back up to his historical level. Call David Stern and insist that every team hire a nail manicurist before Yao ends up tatooed with scars.

    One more thought - the Bulls had a very interesting ball movement scheme with multiple cuts across the court from the left and right at the top of the key, hitting the mover with a pass, if he can cut in the lane he does, if not they pass and catch the next guy coming across.

    We also seem to be doing a bit more cutting to the hoop with passes from Yao and Tmac to Hayes and Snyder. I would like to see Luther do more cuts to the hoop - but probably best when we can draw the opps big man out since Luther is so light. He did a lot more hoop play in college - like to see it get back in his game.
     
    #9 richirich, Nov 19, 2006
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2006
  10. Will

    Will Clutch Crew
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    It's a tricky balance, trying to sort out a team's identity by playing fewer guys and trying to adjust, spread the burden, and shake up the other side by playing more guys. I think these collapses show Van Gundy's not doing enough of the latter. We've clarified the basic identity question, which is that Yao can handle being the main guy and that even the best opposing teams can't handle him. McGrady can continue learning how to fit into that formula even if the role players change every few minutes. I'd give Novak, Spanoulis et al more short stints so we can see how/where/when they fit in. There'll be some TO's, but it's not like playing the same guys all game long doesn't lead to TO's (from fatigue) in the 4th quarter.
     
  11. akuma

    akuma Member

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    since Yao seems to take a lot of jumpers in the fourth when he doesn't have his legs instead of taking it strong to the basket and drawing a foul, why doesn't he just reverse his playing style during the game? i know the Rockets want to establish an inside-outside game, but Yao has a very good shooting touch. Yao should get his easy jumpers in the beginning when he has the best chance of making them, play mostly in the high post and be a major facilitator of the offense ala T-Mac. he can avoid the stupid offensive fouls early and once the defenders get used to playing him away from the basket, he can cut to the hoop for some easy points. by the fourth he should have enough energy to go to work in the low post.
     
  12. VicVictory

    VicVictory Member

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    I disagree, Yao needs to be able to log heavy minutes if he wants to stay dominant & gain respect from everybody. All the great centers were able to play many minutes to help their teams win and i want the same from Yao. Whoever tried to compare Yaos minutes to boxing/wrestling was way off. It more like 36 mins of pushing and shoving. Yao will never become as dominant as he can and we will never win a 'ship if Yao plays a weak 30 MPG.
     
  13. canoner2002

    canoner2002 Contributing Member

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    Trying to go against nature is plain stupid.

    A 310 punder is simply not build to be active on both end, push and shovel for long time. Remind you, westling is pretty much pushing and shoveling and little else.

    Tell me ONE great center, that is 7-6, 310 lbs, and works both end of the court, for 36 minutes per game. Just tell me ONE!

    Tell me ONE 300+ lbs, not even need to be a great center, that works both end of the court, for 36 minutes a game. Does Shaq run around playing defense? Does he run so much and set so many picks on offense?

    On every pocession, Yao fights to get position left, right and middle, and then he runs back to play active defense. It is crazy that people criticize his endurance.

    Either lower his workload if you want him play longer, or lower his minutes. You cannot have both. Either way, we need a third scorer!
     
  14. smoothie

    smoothie Jabari Jungle

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    not only do we need a 3rd scorer (bonzi), but we need to get our PF's setting picks on offense. NOT YAO. the guy works hard enough. in the 4th QTR i would say it's ok to let yao run PNR with tmac because that's our go-to play but the rest of the game he should only be posting up.
     
  15. TeamUSA

    TeamUSA Member

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    Did Flip really say that?

    I though Flip Saunders is an offensive-minded coach.
     
  16. ivanyy2000

    ivanyy2000 Contributing Member

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    That is why I have mixing feeling about Yao. I know he improves every season and now he is more than enough to be No.1 man, IF he only plays 30 minutes each game. His 7-6 tall frame is his biggest asset, but sometimes it is also his biggest liability. Being a No. 1 man no only means he has to dominate while he is fresh, but also means he is still effective after playing 35-40mins every night. It is not easy. That is why I know he is very very good right now, but he is not great. Although he is very close, he is not there yet.
     
  17. HoopsFancy

    HoopsFancy Member

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    exactly :D yao has no problems running a marathon, but running sprints is more tired.
     
  18. MR. MEOWGI

    MR. MEOWGI Contributing Member

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    Exactly, and Bonzi too.
     
  19. Luffy1

    Luffy1 Member

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    The problem is Yao has no comparison, cause no one of his size has ever played big minutes before. It's just natural that a big guy like Yao is going to have less stamina than a small guard. He's still been great and dominant this season and if JVG actually played wells and Novak, we wouldn't have these 4th qtr collapses. :eek:
     
  20. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member
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    It would help a lot of Bonzi wanted to play, and would get himself in shape. That could take some pressure off, and be a great post up option.

    But if his motivation isn't there, then by all means keep him off the court, until he find it.
     

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