I been reading about what Greece, Spain, France done like cutting govt spending which is what a lot of Americans want done here, but it killed their economies. So why do so many smart people in America and Europe keep asking these countries including ours to cut govt spending when it doesn't work? Then again if you lend them money like in Greece, they will find ways to spend it without being able to pay you back. Whats the solution?
Yes, it worked for several countries in Europe. The Greeks chose to be idiots and elect marxist crazies, in a coalition with radical right-wing nationalists. Basically, they elected a nationalist socialist government. That usually does not turn out well.
Stiglitz and Krugman annoy me. From their comfortable offices in New York or wherever, they think they have a right to tell Greeks and Europeans what to do. 246 Greek economist professors disagree with them. http://www.ekathimerini.com/198826/...omics-at-greek-universities-on-the-referendum Declaration of Professors of Economics at Greek Universities on the Referendum The following declaration is signed by 246 professors at Economics Schools and Universities in Greece. By this declaration, we want to express our great distress about the latest developments in our country. We strongly believe that, at this crucial point, it is of paramount importance to avoid excesses, to show national cohesion, to preserve our position in the Eurozone and the EU, and to regain our credibility in the international community. Further, the fiscal consolidation program, drawn jointly with our EU partners and other creditors like the IMF, should be characterized by the lowest possible recessionary consequences and the highest possible level of social protection, aiming at growth and job creation in the private sector as soon as possible. The prolonged political uncertainty has led the economy to a renewed recession, has reversed the decline in unemployment, has lowered tax revenue and has widened the fiscal gap. Taking into account that the proposals of our creditors and the Greek government were converging until last Friday, we believe that what is really at stake in the coming Referendum, irrespective of the precise formulation of the question, is whether Greece will remain, or not, in the Eurozone and, possibly, whether it will remain in the EU itself. The funding of the Greek economy by Eurozone countries was suspended last weekend after the Greek government abandoned the negotiations at a time when no alternative funding opportunities seem to be available. We are already at the first stage of a very slippery process that, if not urgently reversed, will lead to a chaotic debt default and exit from the Eurozone. Bank closures and capital controls (that had been so far avoided throughout the deep crisis) constitute only the first rupture from the Eurozone and the EU itself We believe that the recessionary consequences of debt default and exit from the Eurozone, especially in such a chaotic and superficial way, will be much worse than the effects of a painful compromise with our EU partners and the IMF. A disorderly break of our country from the core of Europe will have disastrous economic, social, political and geopolitical consequences. Short-run consequences: Bank closures, cut in the value of deposits, sharp decline in tourism, shortages of basic consumer goods and raw materials, black market, hyperinflation, firm bankruptcies and a big rise in unemployment, rapid fall in real wages and the real value of pensions, deep recession and serious problems in the functioning of public health care and defense, social unrest. Medium-term consequences: international isolation of the country, no access to international capital markets for several years, low growth and anemic investment, high unemployment combined with high inflation rates, suspension of the flow of EU structural funds, significant decline in the standard of living, poor provision of basic public goods and services. All these developments should not have happened after 5 years of big sacrifices by the Greek people, and a tremendous fiscal adjustment, right at the time when the economy was starting to recover, with favourable expectations for further easing in the terms of our public debt obligations. They should not have happened in a period when the European economy is returning to positive growth rates and other peripheral euro countries start growing and reducing unemployment. They should not have happened in a favorable time for further EU integration that will benefit the South and when the ECB facilitates growth with excess liquidity and zero interest rates. Leaving the Eurozone, especially with this chaotic and superficial way, would likely lead to a process of leaving the EU too, with unpredictable and disastrous consequences for the national security and the democratic stability of our country. For all these reasons, Greece must remain in the core of the EU, which is the Eurozone. For all these reasons, our unequivocal answer to the real question of the referendum is: YES. Yes, to Europe. 1. Adam Αntonis University of Ioannina 2. Aggelidis Timotheos University of Peloponnese 3. Alexakis Christos University of Pireaus 4. Alexakis Panagiotis Athens University 5. Anagnostou Aggeliki University of Thessaly 6. Andoniou Fabio University of Ioannina 7. Andronikidis Αndreas University of Macedonia 8. Androutsopoulos Ion Athens University of Economics and Business 9. Androutsopoulos Κonstantinos Athens University of Economics and Business 10. Apergis Νikolaos University of Pireaus 11. Apostolopoulos Thodoros Athens University of Economics and Business 12. Argouslidis Paris Athens University of Economics and Business 13. Arvanitis Stelios Athens University of Economics and Business 14. Atsalakis George Polytechnic of Crete 15. Avlonitis George Athens University of Economics and Business 16. Balios Dimitris Athens University 17. Ballas Apostolos Athens University of Economics and Business 18. Baltas Georgios Athens University of Economics and Business 19. Baltas Nikolaos Athens University of Economics and Business 20. Basiakos Ioannis Athens University 21. Bellou Victoria University of Thessaly 22. Benos Nikos University of Ioannina 23. Benos Theofanis University of Pireaus 24. Billias Ioannis Athens University of Economics and Business 25. Bitros Georgios Athens University of Economics and Business 26. Blavoukos Spyros Athens University of Economics and Business 27. Bourantas Dimitris Athens University of Economics and Business 28. Bourantonis Dimitris Athens University of Economics and Business 29. Bournova Eugenia Athens University 30. Brisimis Sofoklis University of Pireaus 31. Chalamandaris George Athens University of Economics and Business 32. Chalkias Ioannis Athens University of Economics and Business 33. Charitakis Nikos Athens University 34. Chletsos Michael University of Ioannina 35. Chlomoudis Kostas University of Pireaus 36. Chortareas George Athens University 37. Chouliaras Asteris University of Peloponnese 38. Christopoulos Dimitris Panteion University 39. Christopoulou Sofia University of Macedonia 40. Christou George Athens University of Economics and Business 41. Damianos Dimitris Agricultural University of Athens 42. Dedoulis Manolis Athens University of Economics and Business 43. Delipalla Sofia University of Macedonia 44. Demoirakos Efthymios Athens University of Economics and Business 45. Demos Antonis Athens University of Economics and Business 46. Demousis Michalis University of Patras 47. Dialla Violetta Athens University 48. Dimeli Sofia Athens University of Economics and Business 49. Dimitriadi Zoi University of Macedonia 50. Dotsis Georgios Athens University 51. Doukidis Georgios Athens University of Economics and Business 52. Drakos Anastasios Athens University of Economics and Business 53. Economides George Athens University of Economics and Business 54. Economidou Claire University of Pireaus 55. Economou Athina University of Thessaly 56. Efstratoglou Sofia Agricultural University of Athens 57. Eleftheriou Kostas University of Pireaus 58. Fountas Stylianos University of Macedonia 59. Gaganis Chrysovalantis Univiversity of Crete 60. Gatsios Konstantinos Athens University of Economics and Business 61. Genakos Christos Athens University of Economics and Business 62. Genius Margarita University of Crete 63. Georgiou Andreas University of Macedonia 64. Georgoutsos Dimitrios Athens University of Economics and Business 65. Giaglis Georgios Athens University of Economics and Business 66. Giamouridis Daniel Athens University of Economics and Business 67. Giannakopoulos Nikos University of Patras 68. Giannelis Dimitrios University of Pireaus 69. Giannelis Νikos University of Crete 70. Giotopoulos Ioannis University of Peloponnese 71. Glavinis Panayotis Aristotle University of Thessaloniki 72. Griva Krina University of Ioannina 73. Hassid Josef University of Pireaus 74. Hatziantoniou Damianos Athens University of Economics and Business 75. Hatzipanayotou Panos Athens University of Economics and Business 76. Hatzis Aristides Athens University 77. Iatridis George University of Thessaly 78. Ifantopoulos Ioannis Athens University 79. Indounas Konstantinos Athens University of Economics and Business 80. Ioannidis Antonis Athens University of Economics and Business 81. Ioannidis Stavros Panteion University 82. Ioannou Georgios Athens University of Economics and Business 83. Iordanoglou Chrysafis Panteion University 84. Ireiotis Nikolaos Athens University 85. Kainourgios Dimitris Athens University 86. Kalamboukis Theodoros Athens University of Economics and Business 87. Kalogirou Ioannis Metsovio Polytechnic University 88. Kalyvitis Sarantis Athens University of Economics and Business 89. Kammas Pantelis University of Ioannina 90. Karagiannis Ioannis University of Macedonia 91. Karamanis Konstantinos Athens University of Economics and Business 92. Karaveli Eleni Athens University of Economics and Business 93. Karkalakos Sotiris University of Pireaus 94. Kasimatis Konstantinos Athens University of Economics and Business 95. Katranidis Stelios University of Macedonia 96. Katsimi Margarita Athens University of Economics and Business 97. Kavousanos Emmanouil Athens University of Economics and Business 98. Kazakos Panos Athens University 99. Koen Sandra Athens University of Economics and Business 100. Kollias Christos University of Thessaly 101. Konstantinou Panagiotis Athens University of Economics and Business 102. Konstantopoulos Panos Athens University of Economics and Business 103. Kontouli Maria University of Peloponnese 104. Korliras Panagiotis Athens University of Economics and Business 105. Kosteletou Nikolina Athens University 106. Kostis Kostas Athens University 107. Kotsios Stelios Athens University 108. Kottaridi Konstantina University of Pireaus 109. Koundouri Phoebe Athens University of Economics and Business 110. Kouretas Georgios Athens University of Economics and Business 111. Kritikos Manolis Athens University of Economics and Business 112. Kyriazidou Katerina Athens University of Economics and Business 113. Kyriazis Nikolaos University of Thessaly 114. Kyriazis Dimitris University of Pireaus 115. Kyritsis Ioannis Aristotle University of Thessaloniki 116. Kyrkillis Dimitris University of Macedonia 117. Ladi Stella Panteion University 118. Lekakos Georgios Athens University of Economics and Business 119. Leledakis Georgios Athens University of Economics and Business 120. Leventakis Ioannis Athens University of Economics and Business 121. Liargovas Panagiotis University of Peloponnese 122. Liaropoulos Lykourgos Athens University 123. Loizidis Ioannis Athens University of Economics and Business 124. Lolos Sarantis Panteion University 125. Louri Eleni Athens University of Economics and Business 126. Louridas Pangiotis Athens University of Economics and Business 127. Malevris Nikos Athens University of Economics and Business 128. Malliaris Petros University of Pireaus 129. Matsagganis Manos Athens University of Economics and Business 130. Mergos Giorgos University of Athens 131. Metaxas Theodoros University of Thessaly 132. Miaouli Natasha Athens University of Economics and Business 133. Milliou Chrisovalantou Athens University of Economics and Business 134. Mylonas Nikolaos Athens University 135. Mylonidis Nikos University of Ioannina 136. Nikas Christos University of Macedonia 137. Nikolaou Ioannis Athens University of Economics and Business 138. Nikoleris Theodoros Athens University 139. Nikolopoulos Andreas Athens University of Economics and Business 140. Nikolotsa Daphni University of Crete 141. O’Donnel Owen University of Macedonia 142. Pagkratis Spiros Athens University of Economics and Business 143. Pagoulatos Giorgos Athens University of Economics and Business 144. Palis Thanos Aegean University 145. Palivos Theodoros Athens University of Economics and Business 146. Panagiotopoulou Lida Athens University of Economics and Business 147. Panagiotou Dimitris University of Ioannina 148. Panagopoulos Andreas University of Crete 149. Pantelides Theologos University of Macedonia 150. Papachristou Giorgos Aristotle University of Thessaloniki 151. Papadakis Vassilios Athens University of Economics and Business 152. Papadamou Stephanos University of Thessaly 153. Papadimitriou Stratos University of Pireaus 154. Papadopoulos Hrisoleon Aristotle University of Thessaloniki 155. Papadopoulos Konstantinos Aristotle University of Thessaloniki 156. Papalexandri Nancy Athens University of Economics and Business 157. Papanastasopoulos Giorgos University of Pireaus 158. Papandreou Andreas Athens University 159. Papapanagos Harris University of Macedonia 160. Papastathopoulou Polina Athens University of Economics and Business 161. Papathanassiou Iason University of Macedonia 162. Papavasiliou Nikolaos Athens University of Economics and Business 163. Papoulias Dimitris Athens University 164. Paraskevopoulos Christos University of Macedonia 165. Pasiouras Photis Polytechnic of Crete 166. Patronis Vassilios University of Patras 167. Patsouratis Vassilis Athens University of Economics and Business 168. Pechlivanos Lampros Athens University of Economics and Business 169. Peka Oikonomou University of Pireaus 170. Pelagides Thodoris University of Pireaus 171. Petrakis Manolis University of Crete 172. Petridou Evgenia Aristotle University of Thessaloniki 173. Philippopoulos Apostolis Athens University of Economics and Business 174. Pittis Nikitas University of Pireaus 175. Polemis Michalis University of Pireaus 176. Pollalis Ioannis University of Pireaus 177. Pournarakis Efthimios Athens University of Economics and Business 178. Pragidis Ioannis Democritus University of Thrace 179. Pramatari Katerina Athens University of Economics and Business 180. Psaltopoulos Dimitris University of Patras 181. Psarianos Jacob University of Thessaly 182. Psillaki Maria University of Pireaus 183. Raikou Katerina University of Pireaus 184. Repas Panagiotis Panteion University 185. Repoussis Panagiotis Athens University of Economics and Business 186. Riginos Michalis Athens University 187. Rigopoulou Eirini Athens University of Economics and Business 188. Roumanias Kostas Athens University of Economics and Business 189. Sakellaris Ploutarxos Athens University of Economics and Business 190. Sakellis Yiannis Panteion University 191. Samitas Aristides Aegean University 192. Sarris Alexandros Athens University 193. Sartzetakis Efthimios University of Macedonia 194. Sideropoulos Moissis Aristotle University of Thessaloniki 195. Siourounis Grigoris Panteion University 196. Siris Vasilios Athens University of Economics and Business 197. Sklavou Helen Athens University of Economics and Business 198. Sklias Pantelis University of Peloponnese 199. Skordile Sofia Harokopio University 200. Skountzos Theodoros University of Pireaus 201. Skouras Athanassios Athens University of Economics and Business 202. Skouras Dimitris University of Patras 203. Skouras Spyros Athens University of Economics and Business 204. Soderquist Klas Athens University of Economics and Business 205. Sorros Ιoannis University of Pireaus 206. Sotiropoulos Dimitris Athens University 207. Spinellis Diomidis Athens University of Economics and Business 208. Spyrou Spyros Athens University of Economics and Business 209. Stamatopoulos George University of Crete 210. Stathakopoulos Vlasios Athens University of Economics and Business 211. Stavrakoudis Athanassios University of Ioannina 212. Symeonidis Spyros University of Ioannina 213. Tarantilis Christos Athens University of Economics and Business 214. Tatsos Nikos Panteion University 215. Thalassinos Lefteris University of Pireaus 216. Thomadakis Stavros Athens University 217. Thomakos Dimitrios University of Peloponnese 218. Tinios Plato University of Pireaus 219. Topaloglou Nicholas Athens University of Economics and Business 220. Toumpis Stauros Athens University of Economics and Business 221. Tragaki Alexandra Harokopio University 222. Tsakanikas Angelos Metsovio Polytechnic University 223. Tsakiris Nikos University of Ioannina 224. Tsakloglou Panos Athens University of Economics and Business 225. Tsamourgelis Ioannis Aegean University 226. Tsintzos Panagiotis Democritus University of Thrace 227. Tsionas Efthymios Athens University of Economics and Business 228. Tsipouri Lena Athens University 229. Tsiritakis Emmanuel University of Pireaus 230. Tsoukalis Loukas Athens University 231. Tzavalis Elias Athens University of Economics and Business 232. Tzelepis Dimitrios University of Patras 233. Tzionas Ioannis University of Macedonia 234. Tzouvelekas Vangelis University of Crete 235. Vakola Maria Athens University of Economics and Business 236. Varsakelis Νikos Aristotle University of Thessaloniki 237. Vassilatos Vaggelis Athens University of Economics and Business 238. Veletzas Κostas University of Macedonia 239. Venetis Ioannis University of Patras 240. Vettas Νikolaos Athens University of Economics and Business 241. Voudouri Irini Athens University of Economics and Business 242. Xanthakis Manolis Athens University 243. Xepapadeas Tasos Athens University of Economics and Business 244. Zacharias Lefteris Athens University of Economics and Business 245. Zopounidis Konstantinos Polytechnic of Crete 246. Zoumboulakis Michalis University of Thessaly
They're going to start raiding people's savings accounts. http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/9963b74c-219c-11e5-aa5a-398b2169cf79.html#axzz3ev5GtGSt Right now they're denying this. <blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p>FT report of a Gk Bank Bail In is a malicious rumour that the Head of the Greek Banks Association denied this morning <a href="http://t.co/3xtnQvpS7R" title="http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/9963b74c-219c-11e5-aa5a-398b2169cf79.html">ft.com/cms/s/0/9963b7…</a></p>— Yanis Varoufakis (@yanisvaroufakis) <a href="https://twitter.com/yanisvaroufakis/status/617288527080984576" data-datetime="2015-07-03T21:36:37+00:00">July 3, 2015</a></blockquote> <script src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script> But socialists gonna socialist. The other solution will be for the deadbeat Greeks to find another sugar daddy. Namely, Russia or China.
Varoufakis and Tsipras are irresponsible and shameless crooks. Varoufakis sees all of this as a big game and loves the attention, and Tsipras is an uneducated fool with weird ideological blinders, mixed with nationalist attitudes.
Austerity is a fools game. The reason the U.S. got back on it's feet fast than any other major economy in the world was because we were able to get a stimulus passed and loose monetary policy - the opposite of what Merkel pushed on Europe keeping them in recession for far longer. Every country that practiced austerity has dipped deeper into recession. That's because cutting gov't spending leads to an immediate contraction. Cue the name calling from ATW.
Except Spain, Portugal, Ireland. In fact, all countries in Europe that went through painful reforms have STOPPED the recession in their countries. The only country in the EU that thought everyone else was going to continue to pay for them so that they could live well beyond their economy's productivity was Greece, after they elected a government made up of extreme-left socialists and extreme-right nationalists. They were actually on the road to recovery up to that point. But we all know what happened from there. But New Yorker knows about as much about economics as about anything else - nothing.
Probably as much as exercise does, a little each time brings more benefits, less bad habits and less risk than overdoing it once.
The histrionics out of Greece are unbelievable. Varoufakis calls those who gave them all that money "terrorists", their nationalist minister of defense says "Greece is at war", Tsipras is completely two-faced - on the one hand, he begs for more money, on the other hand he demonizes those he is asking for free handouts. This terrible government in Greece needs to go, for the sake of the poor people in Greece. The Syriza/nationalist government people are irresponsible, evil people. Greece deserves a better government. A few years ago, Italy and Greece were in a similar situation economically. Italy went through reforms under prime minister Renzi and is in a much better situation than Greece now. Greece thought they could just show Europe the finger (which Varoufakis literally did) and still get money. It doesn't work that way.
The B.S you spew is hilarious. Ireland blew billions and billions bailing out and stabilizing it's banks - that's not austerity that's massive spending. Taken that into account austerity in Ireland was a myth. Spain again used essentially quantitative easing. The fact is every country that enacted major spending cuts in Europe had a negative GDP. Austerity was a backwards step. IT's why the U.S. got out of recession first and helped pull Europe out as well. Merkel kept Greece with such severe measures it has prevented Greece from recovering. Also corruption is a massive issue there hurting their economy. You simply don't know what you are talking about. Go back to bashing Muslims. The bigger the cut - the worse of the economy. Only a moron can't understand this chart.
Who are you proposing run Greece? You're saying Greece made the wrong decisions a few years ago - but that was the centrist government that actually pushed austerity. If that option sucks and Syriza sucks, what is the right thing? Greece's problem is currently unfixable in the Euro. They were not remotely making process and they were not just about to turn a corner this year, as much as people would like to suggest otherwise. Their GDP was barely turning positive, but it was showing signs of going right back into recession and it was 25% below where it was a few years ago. Regardless of how they got to this point, they really have 3 options in front of them: 1. Continue with the current bailout structures. This is spinning their wheels. It will keep them from falling off the cliff, but there's no endgame fix here. Europe's bailouts are designed to protect Europe from being sucked down the drain - they have little to do with Greece's best interests. And that's absolutely Europe's right - it's their money after all. But it doesn't help Greece. 2. Default and leave the Euro. This will cause immense short-term pain. But having their own currency that can crash and be devalued is the healthiest long-term solution. We've seen it work in developing countries around the world, and that's what Greece basically is now. It's a restart button and then starting from scratch in a new reality. 3. Threaten #2 and scare Europe enough that they forgive a bunch of debt in the next agreement. This is the best short-term solution for Greece in that it relieves some of their immediate pressures and gets them some breathing room. However, long-term, this leaves them with the same problem of being stuck in Euro which doesn't work for them. The previous government pushed option #1. Syriza seems to be pushing #3, but it's unclear if they really prefer #1 or #2 if Europe calls their bluff. On a short term time horizon, #1 or #3 is probably the best for Greece. On a 10+ year horizon, #2 probably turns out best. Ultimately, there really are no good solutions for Greece - the hole is too deep. So it's a matter of picking which bad solution is least bad. This is an interesting tidbit: http://www.vox.com/2015/7/2/8883307/merkel-nsa-wikileaks-greek-crisis Germany knew that the previous bailout would fail when they enacted it. It was solely done to protect the rest of Europe rather than to help Greece. Also a good read on the argument for debt relief: http://www.usnews.com/news/business...case-for-greece-when-it-forgave-germanys-debt
Yes, and going off heroin leads to short term pain and suffering. Borrowing is heroin, and austerity is withdrawal.
In contrast to what New Yorker posts, this is actually a post worth responding to, at least. Greece has bigger problems than "just" Syriza, obviously. They have a culture of corruption that did not start yesterday. They are basically a failed state because people regard the state as something one has to milk and cheat, because everyone else is doing it, too. And despite all the promises, Syriza are doing the same thing, hiring sons, daughters, brothers, sisters. The previous governments and also a lot of mistakes on the EU side got them into the situation, but electing the mix of Syriza and the right-wing nationalists made things so much worse. As to your question who to run it - obviously whoever their elected government is. I am in favor of option 2, but in combination with at least a partial debt forgiveness and lots of emergency aid that is proactively initiated by countries like Germany, but in a way so that it is clear to the people of Greece that this is not a success of the crazies that are currently in power in Greece, but that it is done out of solidarity by the people of Germany for the people of Greece. I am in favor of Syriza losing that referendum and then Germany and the rest of the EU quickly initiating emergency aid for the poorest in Greece, then Greece leaving the Euro (but not the EU) while at the same time receiving debt forgiveness and enough economic aid and stimulus to get their economy going again. But there also needs to be a culture change in Greece. People need to get away from their learned behavior that cheating the state (and the EU) is okay and that one can just expect others to pay for them forever. They need to somehow manage to change that, or they will be back in the same situation sooner than everyone would like that to happen. By coincidence, I was looking at a huge book full of front pages of German newspaper "Bild", I think from the last 50 years or so. I was just flipping around in it and there was a front page from the 70s that read exactly like current headlines - Greece needing help because their economy faltered.
Hilarious analogy considering that quitting anything cold turkey, especially something as disruptive/habit-forming as heroin, is far more likely to result in a negative outcome than a positive one.
Of course being fiscally responsible works. You are judging what "works" and what doesn't work by how well the economy is doing IN THAT MOMENT. If a country is spending well beyond it's means and are simply inflating bubbles, it creates the ILLUSION of a strong economy. It looks like it's doing great. But there are actually serious structural imbalances that need to be corrected. A "crash" is the first step of the economy correcting itself. It's like a drunk who hits rock bottom. To get healthy again, the drunk might go through withdraws, and it's unpleasant. But it's necessary, and it's the right thing to do. It's the same with the economy. If the economy is to be truly healthy again, some pain is necessary. So don't judge the economy by how it appears on the outside at any particular moment. To relate it to sports, look at the Houston Astros. The Astros used to have a decent team, but their farm system was one of the worst in baseball. They had some serious "structural" problems. But they traded away all of their good players which caused them to suck. But they built through the draft and stockpiled talent. Sure, they were really bad for a few years, but now they are showing signs of being stronger than they ever have been. And it's only the beginning. They haven't even started spending money yet to really improve the roster. They are now in position to succeed for years and years to come.
We must have decades of failed policy in order to be able to attribute regression to the mean to the failed policy.
Yes, I've noticed the strange logic in this thread. "Of course Austerity makes the economy worse. That only means it's getting better. Just keep doing it"
