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A socialist look at the Rox

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout' started by AntiSonic, Jul 18, 2000.

  1. AntiSonic

    AntiSonic Member

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    Juan- Interesting! It's kind of eerie when you think about how similar they are...

    "And while each managed to sully the reputations of their forebears, neither were the answer for their respective organizations. Both said things that embarassed their organizations, both have been called 'hare-brained schemers', both did more harm than good and both were eventually ousted by their own organizations."

    Your Barkley-Pippen/Stalin-Krushchev comparison is perfect. I read somewhere that Stalin really trusted Krushchev, yet Nikita wasted no time denouncing him after his death. You could also apply Quitten's championship promises to Krushchev's "we will bury you" remarks...

    "But Francis can't be Yeltsin, because Yeltsin is an idiot."

    BRAVO!!! If anyone's Yeltsin, I think it might be the citizens of Houston(or maybe they're the corrupted money-seeking youth of Ru$$ia circa 1990?) making the Rockets(USSR) leave by voting "no" on the arena...

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    WE WILL WATCH THEM FALL... Next year [​IMG]

    [This message has been edited by AntiSonic (edited July 18, 2000).]
     
  2. AntiSonic

    AntiSonic Member

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    Also, you could go back a little further with your comparisons...

    Moses Malone could be Karl Marx. Marx came up with socialism and Malone was pretty much the original foundation of the Rockets(although I have no idea how Elvin Hayes could fit in...)

    Rudy Tomajanovich could be Friedrich Engels. Marx(Malone) and Engels(Rudy) both worked together and established what Socialism(Rocketball?) was going to be.

    Lenin eventually studied the works of Marx and Engels. Hakeem and Barkley were both mentored by Moses Malone, and Rudy T. eventually coached them.

    Could Czar Nicholas II be former owner Charlie Thomas? Lenin was exiled a couple of times and Thomas was trying to trade Hakeem back in the early 90's. Also, Hakeem(Lenin) didn't win titles(win the Revolution) until Thomas(Nicholas) was run off...

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    [This message has been edited by AntiSonic (edited July 18, 2000).]
     
  3. dc sports

    dc sports Member

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    Interesting. Could it also be compared to Orwell's Animal Farm, which was based on the communist revolution in Russia?

    I was thinking of Miller (they were mostly pigs) but you could make a comparison between the Dream and Boxer, the dependable workhorse who gave his all for the farm, providing for the others. After he gave his all to the farm (team) he is sold to the glue factory to buy booze for the pigs.

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  4. JuanValdez

    JuanValdez Contributing Member

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    dc sports, maybe I picked up that book too late in life, but man did I hate it. I always finish the books I start but I couldn't finish that one -- and it's only like 100 pages.

    Antisonic, how did I know you were going to show up in this thread? I wouldn't say Stalin trusted Krushchev because he didn't trust anyone, at all. He was a paranoid psychopath. He had some people killed, not because he thought they might be disloyal, but because those people would have been the biggest threats to his power if they ever were to be disloyal. He just thought Krushchev wasn't much of a threat.

    I like the touch with the "We will bury you" quote. That is a great analogy.

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  5. dc sports

    dc sports Member

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    JuanValdez -- I didn't care for it either, but they made me read it in high school. Well, they made me read part of it anyway -- thank you Cliff Notes!

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  6. Mango

    Mango Contributing Member

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    JuanValdez,

    !. Who portrays Beria?

    2. Stalin was Georgian by birth and Charles is from Alabama. Just waiting for somebody to ask about "Georgia".

    Mango


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  7. SmeggySmeg

    SmeggySmeg Contributing Member

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    Love the Comparison Juan

    Surely Rudy is Yeltsin because he sort of looks like him and I am sure from the way he coaches he is drunk all the time and bet ya he has done the funky Yeltin dance sometime somewhere.

    And who's gonna be Castro, i think it's Steve both were and are the next generation.

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  8. Lynus302

    Lynus302 Contributing Member

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    While this is all very interesting, and the analogy is frighteningly similar, I still think you all have way too much time on your hands.
    [​IMG]

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  9. AntiSonic

    AntiSonic Member

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    Here's a relatively minor tidbit, but a tidbit nonetheless...
    The flag of the USSR was red and yellow.
    The old colors of the Rockets were red and yellow.
    The current Russian tricolor is blue, red, and white.
    The current Rockets colors are blue, red, and silver(kinda close to white)
     
  10. rimbaud

    rimbaud Contributing Member
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    AntiSonic:

    Marx did not "invent" socialism. Gracchus Baboef is considered the first modern socialist, from the time of the French Revolution.

    Additionally, there were socialist societies in the middle ages. That socialism was just a lifestyle, no theoretical writings (because the members were illiterate).

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  11. rimbaud

    rimbaud Contributing Member
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    Sorry, Juan, I forgot to tell you that that was a great post.

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    "One evening I seated Beauty on my knees. And I found her bitter."

    "I am a sick man...I am a wicked man. An unattractive man. I think my liver hurts."
     
  12. AntiSonic

    AntiSonic Member

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    Rimmy- I know Marx and Engels didn't invent Socialism, I was just referring to their writings("Communist Manifesto," "First International") and their sort of "source of inspiration" status to Lenin and Stalin compared to Moses' and Rudy's mentor/coach status with Dream and Chuck.

    I knew of people using forms of Socialism in the past but had never heard of that Gracchus Baboef(could he possibly be where Elvin Hayes could fit in? Baboef=first modern Socialist, Hayes= first significant Rocket? [​IMG] ) guy you mentioned. Sounds very interesting and thanks for the info! I'll be sure to read up on him!

    [This message has been edited by AntiSonic (edited July 18, 2000).]
     
  13. rimbaud

    rimbaud Contributing Member
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    Anti - I don't know too much about Baboef (except his name basically means "beef." But everything I have always read mentions him as the real originator of modern socialism. He was the leader of the Conspiracy of Equals during the Revolution. He tried to carry Jacobinism to a much more radical conclusion. Obviously, he was not as crucial to socialism as Marx and he did not write as much.

    Are you familiar with the rivalry between Marx and Michael Bakunin? Great stories - have been promoted to legend.

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    "One evening I seated Beauty on my knees. And I found her bitter."

    "I am a sick man...I am a wicked man. An unattractive man. I think my liver hurts."
     
  14. AntiSonic

    AntiSonic Member

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    Rimmy- Don't know much at all on that subject... Just that they argued a lot and Bakunin's (anarchist, right?) ideals were essentially polar opposites of Marx's... So much for public education nowadays, huh? [​IMG]

    But, no. I don't know any of the real details of their debates.

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    WE WILL WATCH THEM FALL... Next year :(
     
  15. JuanValdez

    JuanValdez Contributing Member

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    I've been thinking about the Bolsheviks again recently, as well as the Rockets, and I was struck (in the shower) by how similar they are to one another. Much like western writers often have Christ-figures, in the USSR comparisons were often drawn to the Revolutionary Leaders.

    Olajuwon is Lenin, of course; each was the respective leader and backbone of the Rockets championships and the October Revolution. After securing victory in the Civil War, Lenin struggled on for a few ineffective years (1921-1924) suffering from several strokes before dying. Likewise, Olajuwon, after securing NBA championships, suffered through several ineffective years with various injuries and sicknesses before retiring.

    Drexler is Leon Trotsky. Drexler started as a Houstonian before making his career in Portland before coming back at the last minute to be Olajuwon's right-hand man. Similarly, Lenin and Trotsky were both Communists before the party split, with Lenin leading the Bolshevik Party (which wanted Communism immediately) and Trostky fairly leading the Mensheviks (who wanted to ease into Communism). Trotsky changed teams right before the Revolution and led the Red Army to victory during the Civil War, second only to Lenin.

    Barkley is Stalin. Both would do whatever it took to win. While Barkley came from another team, unfortunately Stalin had been a Bolshevik his entire career. However, there are other similarities. During Lenin's last years, Trotsky and Stalin often sparred much like Drexler and Barkley often sparred. Also, like with Drexler and Barkley, Stalin won out because he was more charismatic. The USSR eventually revolved around Stalin just like the Rockets eventually revolved around Barkley. Likewise, Drexler retired to UH just like Trotsky retired to Mexico (Trotsky was assassinated anyway in 1940 with an icepick. Is the same fate awaiting Drexler?)

    Pippen is like Krushchev (Brezhnev won't get a comparison). Slightly younger than the old guard, Krushchev and Pippen both were supposed to revamp their respective systems. And while each managed to sully the reputations of their forebears, neither were the answer for their respective organizations. Both said things that embarassed their organizations, both have been called 'hare-brained schemers', both did more harm than good and both were eventually ousted by their own organizations.

    Steve Francis is Mikhail Gorbachev. Each represent a new generation; each are energetic and highly skilled. Each were successful in leading the transition from a tired old inflexible system to new, more dynamic system. Well, Gorbachev wasn't too successful since the whole thing came crashing around his ears. But Francis can't be Yeltsin, because Yeltsin is an idiot. And he certainly can't be Putin. Putin is Kelvin Cato or Pig Miller or something.

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  16. JayZ750

    JayZ750 Contributing Member

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    You need to get a radio or something to play in the shower cause that is one strange comparison. [​IMG]

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  17. temujinphl

    temujinphl Member

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    I am very happy to see that we have some truly learned members on this BBS.

    Bored, but learned. [​IMG]

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    [This message has been edited by temujinphl (edited July 19, 2000).]
     
  18. rimbaud

    rimbaud Contributing Member
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    Anti,

    This is going just off the top of my head, so I might make some mistakes, but...

    Bakunin basically started the First International (I think with Proudhon?). Marx came in shortly afetr. Their views were actually not polar opposites. Marx was a socialist, Bakunin a libertarian socialist.

    Bakunin loved Marx's critique of capitalism, he just felt his solution was off. Bakunin was actually the first to warn about the dangers of socialism/communism if enacted in Marx's way. He proved to be right.

    Anyway, I think they mostly just did not like each other. Marx was an academic, Bakunin was not. Bakunin beleived in direct action, Marx really did not. Marx had more friends/political allies, so the First International split, with Marx getting the bigger faction and, eventually, complete control because Bakunin left.

    I have read accounts of them getting into heated yelling matches. I need to refresh myself more on the details.



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    "One evening I seated Beauty on my knees. And I found her bitter."

    "I am a sick man...I am a wicked man. An unattractive man. I think my liver hurts."
     
  19. JuanValdez

    JuanValdez Contributing Member

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    Look at all these posts! I can't believe this, of all subjects, has generated this kind of a response.

    Mango, I think Beria has to be Mirsad Turkcan since each had to be eliminated for Krushchev/Pippen to get power/more money. Also, I considered pointing out the racial differences of the three: Lenin as Russian, Trotsky as Jew, Stalin as Georgian: to show the distinctions of the players' teams but decided against it for a vareity of reasons (one being that none of them changed ethnicities like players have changed teams).

    Rimbaud and Antisonic, all this socialist history talk is reminding me of the days before the weight of the world had crushed my spirit. Remember Darkness at Noon? Before you try to put out the fire, you have to determine whether you're using water or gasoline. That's the funny thing about socialists, no two can agree about anything. Eventually, like me, you will be assimilated. Ask Mango.

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  20. Mango

    Mango Contributing Member

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    JuanValdez,

    That is a pretty good take of Beria = Turkcan.

    Didn't they eliminate Beria in Soviet books by inserting a longer article on the Bering Sea?

    Turkcan also seems to have been eliminated from our memories as something best forgotten.

    If we are going to keep this thread going, I have to do like rimbaud and refresh myself in this area. Never dreamed that we would venture into this subject on the BBS.

    What is the planned direction of this thread?

    Soviet history?

    Foundations of Socialism?

    Pan-Slav movement?

    Mango

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    1. Put new topics in the proper forum
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    3. No duplicate threads
    4. Conduct yourself as an adult
    The Serious Police are watching
    Donate Blood or be assimilated!

    [This message has been edited by Mango (edited July 19, 2000).]
     

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