1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

[Grantland] BS Report on Harden Deal

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by stl1622dc, Oct 30, 2012.

  1. stl1622dc

    stl1622dc Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2009
    Messages:
    412
    Likes Received:
    26
    BS Report by Bill Simmons regarding the Harden trade.

    One interesting part is that Simmons talked to Morey (they are close) and Simmons asked why Morey didn’t think OKC waited to trade Harden. Morey said that he thinks Sam Presti just “really liked the deal.” At this point they discuss whether there is something Presti saw in Jeremy Lamb that they are missing. The specific discussion is at 17:05.

    Link: http://espn.go.com/espnradio/grantland/player?id=8571032

    Alt Link: www.grantland.com/podcasts
     
  2. heypartner

    heypartner Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 1999
    Messages:
    62,497
    Likes Received:
    56,083
    I agree with Bill Simmons at roughly the 15min mark to 18min mark...Presti over-thought his decision. A title contender should go for it. They are NO QUESTION worse this year than last.

    When you are a title contender, you don't trade Harden for Kevin Martin and an unproven rookie, and you don't worry about future picks.

    I don't see how he doesn't ride his Big 3 for one more year. Also, I think the owner is stupid, too, for not paying luxury tax like Mark Cuban would...and he doesn't even have to pay it this year.

    Laker's fans are hugely excited that OKC gave up Harden. imo, the only people who question this trade are Fantasy League Dreamcasters who are pretending to be objective, and (oh yeah) apparently 10% of Rockets fans.
     
    1 person likes this.
  3. JayGoogle

    JayGoogle Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2007
    Messages:
    50,145
    Likes Received:
    40,814
    110% agreed.

    You have a team that has a shot at a title, you simply don't break that up. Everyone is applauding him for being shrewd and standing up to Harden, but I think in the end they will regret this. Even if the trade doesn't work out for us because I don't think Martin is going to be what they think he will be.

    I don't think he'll lead that second unit and Martin has not been great in clutch moments here (the opposite...and that is in regular season games...how's it going to be when Durant or WB pass the ball off to him in a clutch moment in the playoffs?)

    Lamb is a complete unknown. I get it, he has talent. So did Anthony Randolph. So do a lot of guys.

    You build a team to become a contender...they achieved that and are now deciding to turn around.
     
  4. Rocket Freak

    Rocket Freak Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 1999
    Messages:
    603
    Likes Received:
    155
    We are talking about people who live in Oklahoma.
     
    3 people like this.
  5. redhotrox

    redhotrox Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2011
    Messages:
    4,084
    Likes Received:
    453
    What Bill Simmons said about OKC refusing to give Harden a trade kicker makes them look really foolish.

    He said that Harden agreed take the $54M if they at least gave him a 15% trade kicker…Basically he’d sacrifice money so long as OKC wouldn’t take advantage of that and turn around and trade him away.

    OKC wasn’t having any of that so they picked Martin (1 year stopgap), Lamb (good upside, but not as much as Harden and is going to take some time to develop), and a pick that’s probably going to be late lottery and just produce a good role player. The odds are totally against them to make up for the talent they’re losing with Harden.

    Thank you Presti for being a bigger moron than I ever would have expected out of you.
     
    1 person likes this.
  6. burlesk

    burlesk Serious business
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2001
    Messages:
    1,951
    Likes Received:
    2,155
    Puts it all in perspective, don't it...
     
  7. formido

    formido Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2012
    Messages:
    157
    Likes Received:
    28
    Yeah, that trade kicker refusal just sucks all the air out of any argument that Harden turned his back on the family.
     
  8. Convictedstupid

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2008
    Messages:
    4,957
    Likes Received:
    507
    I choose not to dwell in the appearing stupidity of Presti. We have James Harden on the Rockets. Who is a perennial all star. Who is 23. Who will remain here for the better half of a decade.

    I still can't believe it.
     
  9. flamingdts

    flamingdts Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2008
    Messages:
    11,548
    Likes Received:
    4,484
    There is nothing wrong with overpaying if you are in contention status, I think even Morey has said that.

    All Presti did was convert a championship piece to a bunch of assets, whiles already paying big money to three core pieces. Now he is going to waste a few of Durant and Westbrook's best years.

    Honestly, unless Presti has another move in mind with what we gave him, he will not find another high caliber player like Harden who could improve concurrently with his core.
     
  10. heypartner

    heypartner Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 1999
    Messages:
    62,497
    Likes Received:
    56,083
    The other thing is Harden as Top 2 or 3 SG has a good chance of being more important than Westbrook as a Top 3 or 4 PG (in a league STACKED at the PG position).

    When pressed, Presti might have actually traded the wrong player of the Big 3. He could have stood pat, and resigned Harden in the summer or shopped Westbrook vs Harden in the summer equally to see which one in a trade produced the best core for Durant.
     
  11. Icehouse

    Icehouse Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2000
    Messages:
    13,365
    Likes Received:
    3,713
    If the Rockets weren't my first love I would be pissed at OKC for breaking up that core. How often do you get 3 top 20 players, 2 top 10 ones at that, all that young and good? That hasn't happened in decades. As a fan of basketball in general I wanted to watch that team develop.

    Oh well, home team first.
     
  12. jopatmc

    jopatmc Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2002
    Messages:
    15,368
    Likes Received:
    387
    Presti did trade the wrong player. We'll find that out over the course of their careers. But that's good for us.
     
  13. haoafu

    haoafu Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2006
    Messages:
    2,021
    Likes Received:
    56
    This is win win trade.
     
  14. Joe Joe

    Joe Joe Go Stros!
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 3, 1999
    Messages:
    23,838
    Likes Received:
    13,895
    I don't see it as too bad a deal for OKC if you assume they will lose him in offseason. Rockets gave up a lot. OkC can still trade picks for another player.


    That said, a team almost always losses when they deal a guy like like Harden. Plus, he is still young. Rockets very lucky.
     
  15. leebigez

    leebigez Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2001
    Messages:
    15,485
    Likes Received:
    586
    When you have 2 superstars with the age of westbrook and durant,you can afford to make this kind of move. B4 the draft, a lot of draft people had lamb in the 7 ish range. So for okc to make this trade,the probably really wanted lamb as the future player. .I thought they should've traded harden b4 the draft to bobcats and draft drummond. Thing is,okc isn't done yet and to me, they're still 1 or 2 in the west. Martin will be fine as a ctch and shoot guy and lamb will be brought along. The spurs traded jackson after their title and manu was unproven. The spurs also traded guys so they can match any offer for manu. Presti is looking forward and trying to stay flexible which is very,very important.
     
  16. Raven

    Raven Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2002
    Messages:
    14,984
    Likes Received:
    1,024
    Durant now has his excuse for leaving. If they can't get past LA, Durant can point to losing Harden as the reason why. He can say he just wants to win and that being in a small market is too big a disadvantage to overcome.
     
  17. heypartner

    heypartner Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 1999
    Messages:
    62,497
    Likes Received:
    56,083
    Presti should not have traded Harden right now. It was a very bad decision. Even assuming Presti can't resign Harden in the summer...you are saying OKC doesn't get to the Finals again, and Harden refuses to sign. Really...you are going to give up on your 3 draft picks who turned into a BIG 3.

    leebigez....I know you enough to know there is no way in hell you would have OK'd this if the Rockets were OKC and we had that Big 3 from the draft.

    Plus, you are saying Westbrook is more valuable than Harden. Presti could trade Westbrook in the Summer.

    Harden is more important than Westbrook because the PG position is so awesomely STACKED in the NBA right now. It is the most stacked position there is.

    Did you ever think of that? Trade freaking Westbrook...not Harden. Presti is an idiot...and so it the OKC owner.
     
  18. GideonC

    GideonC Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2012
    Messages:
    20
    Likes Received:
    6
    IMO OKC absolutely traded the wrong player. Harden is super-efficient, with massive potential, and also responsible for more value/wins than Westbrook by all the advanced metrics I've seen.

    Besides that metrics angle, if OKC wins a title with a shoot-first high-usage PG... well, they'll be the first team in league history to do so. Maybe the closest has been Isaiah or Billups, but they were still way way more standard 1s than Westbrook. Sure, there's a first time for everything (for example, no team with the league scoring leader on it won a title before Jordan's Bulls), but there's a reason why most top PGs are more in the Chris Paul/Steve Nash mold.

    Westbrook is an immense talent but he also sucks up possessions, makes too-frequent poor decisions, and keeps the ball out of Durant's hands too much. OKC should be Durant's team, with the ball going to him early in possessions and him making decisions from there. Think how offenses run through LeBron or Kobe (or ran through Bird or Jordan). With Harden and a solid mid-level pass-first PG, OKC could have built a dynasty IMO. A top-3 superstar (Durant) + another top 10 player (which Harden will be in a year or two, I think, and various advanced metrics indicate is likely) with good supporting pieces and coaching is a recipe for multiple titles.

    However, with Westbrook and no Harden, I think they are going to drop way faster and harder than almost anyone is predicting... maybe 52-30 and out in the conference semis this year.

    Absolutely phenomenal trade for Houston IMO... finding solid supporting pieces through free agency, trades, or the draft is very doable, but finding a true "foundational player" is the elusive key to success.
     
  19. Spacemoth

    Spacemoth Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2007
    Messages:
    9,835
    Likes Received:
    4,484
    Not to belabor the obvious, but the consensus on Clutchfans is not what the consensus outside out it is. Most people, bandwagon fans in Houston included, are KILLING the Rockets for "mortgaging the future" to acquire a player who should be no better than 6th man on a championship contender.

    To a certain extent, we are kinda wearing rose-colored glasses, looking at Harden's per-possession stats as a guy coming off the bench and just assuming that those stats will pro-rate to 36mpg in a starting role. At the same time, the army of haters led by Bruce Bowen and Stephen A. Smith (in whom we've probably made a lifelong enemy for 1.) what we "did" to Tracy McGrady and 2.) the whole Marcus Camby/Jeremy Lin fiasco!) do have a bit of a point in saying that what Harden WAS last year is not worth what we gave up for him.

    The answer is likely somewhere in between, that Harden will be an easy all-star, better than the player he was last year, but still not the superduperstar we Clutchfans are asking him to be. That grey area in which he will inevitably fall is going to be what nets Morey his contract extension or, conversely, his pink slip. Let's hope for all our sakes that Stephen A. gets egg on his face and we're laughing at the finish line. It's not like it hasn't happened before.
     
    1 person likes this.
  20. infinitidoug

    infinitidoug Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2010
    Messages:
    1,219
    Likes Received:
    26
    I live in Southern California and everyone here is more than just happy that this trade went through. Maybe OKC sees something nobody else can. Who knows. Here in California, everyone is taking it for what's it worth now and couldn't be happier

     

Share This Page

  • About ClutchFans

    Since 1996, ClutchFans has been loud and proud covering the Houston Rockets, helping set an industry standard for team fan sites. The forums have been a home for Houston sports fans as well as basketball fanatics around the globe.

  • Support ClutchFans!

    If you find that ClutchFans is a valuable resource for you, please consider becoming a Supporting Member. Supporting Members can upload photos and attachments directly to their posts, customize their user title and more. Gold Supporters see zero ads!


    Upgrade Now