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Explaining the Arab World's Democracy Deficit

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by geeimsobored, Apr 11, 2012.

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  1. geeimsobored

    geeimsobored Contributing Member

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    It seems like a certain group of people are constantly fighting over the answer to this question. I found this take to be very interesting in terms of taking a larger historical look of governance in the Arab world. Not sure I agree with everything but it sheds a very interesting light. I'm curious what Mathloom might think about this.

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  2. da_juice

    da_juice Member

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    I'm assuming this is similar to his piece in Time.

    I think one commonly overlooked fact is that many of these countries are less than 100 years old and were carved up from former empires with little regard to ethnic or religious tension and then left to form their own governments. The same thing is why much of Africa is a complete mess.
     
  3. geeimsobored

    geeimsobored Contributing Member

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    I get that. But even in Africa, democracies (as imperfect as they are) have been created. And the sectarian divisions in Africa are much much worse than they are in the Arab world. And many of those countries are as old if not newer than the Arab countries. Other Muslim countries that aren't in the Middle East are also former colonial creatures that have managed to create a semblance of democracy.

    Some of the things he points out such as the rise of Islamic parties in Egypt aren't particularly germane. That shouldn't be a shocker considering the only organizations that could mobilize turnout for decades were mosques so it wasn't a shocker that they could do it once elections came.

    And certainly this video is way to simple. The Middle East has gotten disproportionate amounts of outside money from the West to prop up regimes, it has gotten disproportionate military aid, etc.. Those are all factors. But even on the periphery of the Arab world, where foreign interests are much tamer, you see the same pattern. That is where this hypothesis generates some value.
     
  4. Mathloom

    Mathloom Contributing Member

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    The history of the Middle East is no different than the history of Central/Western Europe, just that those Europeans and those Middle Easterners from back then are all dead, so everyone now believes they're living in a historically unique situation. It is the exact opposite of the history of the United States. Imagine if Chritopher Columbus and his crew were murdered for their invasion and his body was hanging where the next expidition came. In the Middle East, natives rule. I'm sure you will find that Native Americans and Middle Easterners share a lot of opinions. It is also partially why Middle Easterners and Americans don't see eye to eye on some things.

    Some people in the Middle East are waiting for America to go "ok, I'm done, going back home" so they can then finally start to build civil society. Till then, it's pointless. I live a better life in Dbai than most people in the world, and I've yet to meet someone who can say my country has engaged in more atrocities than theirs. US? UK? Germany? Any developed nation? Whether that's incidental or implicit, I don't know, but it's true. Who wants a corrupt democracy? Who wants an out of control democracy? If I had to choose between two parties whose positions are basically "opposite of other", how would that help me? I don't want to be treated like a child with the illusion of choice. For this reason, I find it a joke that a person in Germany pushing a voting button to elect a person to install a person to kill people in Iraq harrasses me because I work for a government which does what exactly as bad as that? What's worse than that? I've never pushed that button in my life and I've never killed anyone and I don't plan on it. That's more than I can say for almost every voting person in Western Europe and N America.

    There are American foreign policy interests. Chances are, if you have to establish a military base outside your country to maintain a certain interest, then it is clear your interests are contrary to the interests of the foreign party. This is logic. If it was in the interest of the foreign party, you could send them an email and they would do it. Right now, as you read this, you do not realize how mind-boggling it is to a Middle Easterners that you know this and carry on with your life regularly. Personally, I consider it a sort of trance induced by a wholistic attack on the American mind (again, whether intentional or unintentional, I don't care). This tiny fact defines the Middle East, it is responsible for most dead bodies in the region, American or Middle Eastern or otherwise. It is not normal for a country to be this overextended outside its borders. Look at the company you keep hitorically - look at the historical atrocities record of those countries which maintained the highest level of foreign presence historically. Are you going to say to Middle Easterners (just like every power before you did) that you are the exception?

    Think of it as a finite pie, and someone is eating more slices than they are entitled to. Where are those slices coming from? Whose slice is being consumed by the fattie?

    On top of this, Middle Easterners are questioned about their sentiment towards American foreign policy, and this is infuriating, as if some special government commission or report is required to answer the question. Unanimously polls show distrust and sometimes disdain for American government policy - this is simply due to the murder of Middle Eastern families, friends, erasing entire countries, installing entire countries, bases, etc. Noam Chomsly speaks about this extensively, he refers to "gallop polls" I'm not sure how accurate you consider those to be. Americans live in the Middle East and as long as they are not government agents, 99.9% of them are safe. Only those who have government jobs face elevated risk, which is normal for any foreign government employee.

    I also happen to think Americans are the only path to peace. Power is so concentrated in America that any problem and solution must go through it, and pretty much the only population I count on to wake up from this trance is the American one. This is because of the unique quality of Americans. All immigrants. Many many many escaped persecution. Americans love the underdog, they love the victim. They just don't have the information to make a correct decision.

    Above all, be prepared to not be the most powerful country in the world. Whether now or in a million years, it will happen, and the world won't forget what you voted for, especially after you paraded around about how democratic and fair your country is. By the same token, the world won't forget if you reach out to them like equals. It's your choice.
     
    #4 Mathloom, Apr 12, 2012
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2012
    1 person likes this.
  5. Cohete Rojo

    Cohete Rojo Contributing Member

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    Is there a way for the Arab's to print Democracy?
     
  6. AroundTheWorld

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    http://www.demdigest.net/blog/2012/04/legacy-of-conquest-explains-arab-democracy-deficit/

    Legacy of conquest explains Arab democracy deficit?

    Is the main threat to sustainable democratic transitions emerging from the Arab world’s populist revolts also the cause of the region’s historic democracy deficit?

    It is not Islam, Arab culture, the Palestinian-Israeli conflict or the curse of oil wealth that impedes democratic change, but the political legacy of Muslim military conquest, claims a Brookings Institution analysis.

    The Arab democracy deficit “is a product of the long-run influence of control structures developed under Islamic empires in the pre-modern era,” says economist Eric Chaney.

    Distinguishing between countries that became Islamic by conversion, like Indonesia, or conquest, like much of the Arab world and Central Asia, he finds that in the latter, “historic control structures have left a legacy of weak civil societies where political power is concentrated today in the hands of military and religious leaders that work to perpetuate the status quo.”

    As a commentary in The Economist notes:

    By dividing the Muslim world into conquered countries and those spared conquest, Mr Chaney finds that the democratic deficit remains for the former group but vanishes for the latter. Conquered non-Arab states like Uzbekistan look like those in the Arab League whereas non-conquered Muslim states like Albania and Indonesia do not

    The institutional legacy of military conquest includes the denial or suffocation of political space for independent civil society groups such as labor unions, Chaney asserts. This potentially undermines the emergence organized labor’s ability to act as an autonomous countervailing power or check on new forms of authoritarian rule.

    “The region’s institutional history shows that overwhelming popular support for Islamists may undermine democratic efforts by concentrating political power in the hands of these groups,’ Chaney cautions:

    Indeed, the recent past shows that Islamists are just as likely to establish autocratic rule as other groups in the absence of checks on their power. Thus, unless other interest groups –such as labor unions or commercial interests- check their power, Islamists may replace secular rulers and usher in a new wave of autocracy in some Arab countries.

    While his analysis is historically-rooted, it is by no means determinist, while highlighting the varying constraints on democratic prospects.

    “Despite these limitations, at some level the structural changes the region has undergone over the past 60 years have made the Arab world more fertile ground for sustained democratic change today than at any time in the past,” Chaney notes:

    Indeed, the widespread protests that swept across the region in 2011 have no precedent in the region’s history. That having been said, in some countries of the Arab world (e.g. Egypt or Yemen) the present-day political equilibrium seems more similar to the historical equilibrium that has accompanied autocratic institutions than in others (e.g. Tunisia). In this sense, history suggests that democracy is less likely to emerge in the former group of countries than in the latter.
     
  7. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member
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    I haven't had the chance to watch the video yet and will watch it later but I wanted to respond to Mathloom's post.

    I can agree with most of what you write and still not agree with your overall argument. You are absolutely correct that the US has projected power into the Middle East and for the most part that hasn't been good but I think it is a mistake to blame the US for the condition of the Middle East and the blame game is partly why the Middle East is in the condition it is today.

    Your post basically makes it sound like the Arabs are essentially nothing more than victims and / or children with little control over their fate. The problem with that attitude though is that it virtually guarantees no progress since most of the blame for shortcomings is placed on external forces. This attitude has largely fueled both repressive autocratic regimes and extremism. When people feel they are just victimized by outside forces they lose personal responsibility for building a better society.

    While the Arabs, and other people in the Middle East, can point to factual evidence of such victimization that doesn't excuse them and their leaders from trying to build a better society. Consider the Nasser's Arab Nationalism movement that made some moves to do so. In the end though any progress was squandered in wars with Israel and hi jacked by strongmen like Saddam Hussein and Mubarak. At the same time fuedal monarchies just relied on energy wealth to provide physical development without social. Conversely they used medieval religious interpretations to empower their reign only to find that also empowering radicals.

    Now compare the situation of the Middle East with SE Asia. The people of SE Asia can make a even greater claim to being victimized by the US when possibly two million of them were killed by the US in the 1960's and 1970's. Following closely on that another million more were killed in a wave of collective insanity in Cambodia and Laos. While that was going on strongmen seized control of Indonesia and Burma and in the former with the full support of the US. What we have seen though is that the ASEAN nations rather than continue wallow in victimhood, regional wars, and medieval religion instead built stable productive and even democratic societies. Thailand is far more stable and productive than Egypt, Singapore's wealth is comparable to the Emirates and while it is essentially a one party state grants more rights than the Emirates. Even the worst of ASEAN, Myanamar, is moving towards democracy and outperforms Yeman and Oman. Having traveled through several ASEAN countries almost everywhere you see development. The same cannot be said for the Arab states.

    So you have to ask yourself what is the difference between a region that was victimized by colonialism and the cold war, many states artificially created and even Islamic like Malaysia and Indonesia succeeding where as the Middle East isn't? There is obviously no single or simple answer but among the answers the attitude of the states themselves and their willingness to reform and do what it takes to build successful countries.
     
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  8. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member
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    While much of Indonesia became Muslim due to gradual conversion it was also spread by conquest. The great Majapahit Kingdom, the last non-Islamic empire in Indonesia / Malaysia was defeated by the Malacca Sultanate in the 16th C. leading to the Islamicization of most of Indonesia.

    It's an interesting theory that Muslim conquest ossified political development but considering conquest also played a strong role in SE Asia, by Muslim and non-Muslim forces. I am not sure if that can be considered a major cause.
     
  9. AroundTheWorld

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    This post is so unbelievably full of fail that I don't even know where to start.

    rocketsjudoka has already noticed it (and said it in much kinder words than I am able to after reading this train wreck of self-pity, finger-pointing and whinging):

    You blame everything on others. Always.

    In your mind, there is a convenient scapegoat for everything. And it is always someone else. Never yourself.

    "Oh, we don't have democracy? It's the Americans' fault. We are just waiting for them to leave and THEN we will build great democracies here."

    No self-reflection. Defensiveness. Easily outraged.

    Ridiculous.
     
  10. DaDakota

    DaDakota If you want to know, just ask!

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    Come on Mathloom, while America certainly has it's tendrils around the world it does not stop the middle eastern countries from being a democracy.


    DD
     
  11. Dairy Ashford

    Dairy Ashford Member

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    A domestic economy based on land rights rather than retail, professional services or advanced communications. The few among whom that wealth is concentrated and passed down from generations look to global trade for both goods/services and military protection; so their constituents have nothing to offer in exchange for rights and freedom.
     
  12. RedRedemption

    RedRedemption Contributing Member

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    Yeah countries in the Middle East that can't even get along with their own people are going to dominate the world. The Sunni-Shiite religious strife is one of the most volatile intra-religious clashes ever seen. Not to mention its not like this is taking place in an area that practices secularism. There are enough radicals for them to basically install a Theocracy in just time and the oneness of religion and government in that area will ensure they will never see peace, or at least not stable peace.
     
  13. meh

    meh Contributing Member

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    While I won't say that the US is the major cause of lack of Arab democracy, I don't see why they can't have a huge impact. US is to the Arab world is like Al Qeada times a thousand to the US. At the very least, it's an incredibly easy tool for politicians to use to put fear and hatred into its populace. And that it's a good place to place the troubles of a country to distract a populace from domestic problems.

    Also, and I'm only guessing here, but from history the US has cared a lot more about our own benefit vs. benefit of locals when it comes to foreign meddling. That is, if it suited the oil industry more to have dictators/kings in place in the Middle East, then we'd try to keep that in place. It's only quite recently with Al Qeada and Bush's invasion of Iraq that this whole "we want the Middle East to be democratic" thing even came about. At least I sure as hell don't remember people caring so much about it before 9/11.
     
  14. Ashcoza

    Ashcoza Member

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    I didn't want to read that long post, but did one of the guys really just say its bc of America being there that they don't have democracy? Are you KIDDING me? So we are the problem i na country where these people run around delivering fatwa threats to cartoonist, not giving women equal powers, swear out us infidels, we who came there to help establish stability despite being attacked and insulted are the problem? I am with ATW, clearly the people-cant say it because sensitive political corrective bs from the left- who have a history of being violent and not open are the problem! Shameless blame
     
  15. DaDakota

    DaDakota If you want to know, just ask!

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    As an American, I fully give my permission for the backwards assed religious based middle eastern countries to embrace personal and religious freedoms and a democratic government.

    Now, go to it. Power to the people, and not to the Mullahs....

    DD
     
    1 person likes this.
  16. Northside Storm

    Northside Storm Contributing Member

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    Too bad your government doesn't and hasn't for the last thirty years.

    Power to the people is nowhere near what American foreign policy has tried to achieve, unless that's power to the American people, and the Israeli people.

    I don't think the Arab countries would be a shining jewel in the desert as they were in the early Middle Ages, but let's call a spade a spade. American policy in the region has been divisive, and a terrible influence. Just ask the Shah of Iran.
     
    1 person likes this.
  17. RedRedemption

    RedRedemption Contributing Member

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    I will tell you this. Until the governments there advocate for a FULL 100% separation of Church and State; they will never. I mean NEVER develop into anything meaningful.

    Secularism is the difference between a ****hole and a fairly modernized and prosperous (relatively) nation.
     
  18. Northside Storm

    Northside Storm Contributing Member

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    [​IMG]

    "Woah, bro, chill out."
     
  19. RedRedemption

    RedRedemption Contributing Member

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    Its no coincidence that the Western powers got richer after the rise of secularism and the Middle Eastern "powers" that kept their theocratic policies and practices didn't move a bit.
     
  20. AroundTheWorld

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    Erdogan is reaping the rewards of prior secularism, but leading his country into the dark ages in the longer run. He is a two-faced, dangerous populist.
     

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