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Affirmative Action Reconsidered

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Pipe, Sep 4, 2003.

  1. Pipe

    Pipe Contributing Member

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    The following article doesn't break any news flashes, but I was surprised at the magnitude of the discrimination. So, is affirmative action the answer? If not, what is?

    *************************
    CAPITAL
    By DAVID WESSEL

    Racial Discrimination
    Is Still at Work in U.S.

    Two young high-school graduates with similar job histories and demeanors apply in person for jobs as waiters, warehousemen or other low-skilled positions advertised in a Milwaukee newspaper. One man is white and admits to having served 18 months in prison for possession of cocaine with intent to sell. The other is black and hasn't any criminal record.

    Which man is more likely to get called back?

    It is surprisingly close. In a carefully crafted experiment in which college students posing as job applicants visited 350 employers, the white ex-con was called back 17% of the time and the crime-free black applicant 14%. The disadvantage carried by a young black man applying for a job as a dishwasher or a driver is equivalent to forcing a white man to carry an 18-month prison record on his back.

    Many white Americans think racial discrimination is no longer much of a problem. Many blacks think otherwise. In offices populated with college graduates, white men quietly confide to other white men that affirmative action makes it tough for a white guy to get ahead these days. (If that's so, a black colleague once asked me, how come there aren't more blacks in the corporate hierarchy?)

    A recent Gallup poll asked: "Do you feel that racial minorities in this country have equal job opportunities as whites, or not?" Among whites, the answer was 55% yes and 43% no; the rest were undecided. Among blacks, the answer was 17% yes and 81% no.

    The Milwaukee and other experiments, though plagued by the shortcomings of research that relies on pretense to explain how people behave, offer evidence that discrimination remains a potent factor in the economic lives of black Americans.


    "In these low-wage, entry-level markets, race remains a huge barrier. Affirmative-action pressures aren't operating here," says Devah Pager, the sociologist at Northwestern University in Evanston, Ill., who conducted the Milwaukee experiment and recently won the American Sociological Association's prize for the year's best doctoral dissertation. "Employers don't spend a lot of time screening applicants. They want a quick signal whether the applicant seems suitable. Stereotypes among young black men remain so prevalent and so strong that race continues to serve as a major signal of characteristics of which employers are wary."

    In a similar experiment that got some attention last year, economists Marianne Bertrand of the University of Chicago and Sendhil Mullainathan of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology responded in writing to help-wanted ads in Chicago and Boston, using names likely to be identified by employers as white or African-American. Applicants named Greg Kelly or Emily Walsh were 50% more likely to get called for interviews than those named Jamal Jackson or Lakisha Washington, names far more common among African-Americans. Putting a white-sounding name on an application, they found, is worth as much as an extra eight years of work experience.

    These academic experiments gauge the degree of discrimination, not just its existence. Both suggest that a blemish on a black person's resume does far more harm than it does to a white job seeker and that an embellishment does far less good.

    In the Milwaukee experiment, Ms. Pager dispatched white and black men with and without prison records to job interviews. Whites without drug busts on their applications did best; blacks with drug busts did worst. No surprise there. But this was a surprise: Acknowledging a prison record cut a white man's chances of getting called back by half, while cutting a black man's already-slimmer chances by a much larger two-thirds.

    "Employers, already reluctant to hire blacks, are even more wary of blacks with proven criminal involvement," Ms. Pager says. "These testers were bright, articulate college students with effective styles of self-presentation. The cursory review of entry-level applicants, however, leaves little room for these qualities to be noticed." This is a big deal given that nearly 17% of all black American men have served some time, and the government's Bureau of Justice Statistics projects that, at current rates, 30% of black boys who turn 12 this year will spend time in jail in their lifetimes.

    In the Boston and Chicago experiment, researchers tweaked some resumes to make them more appealing to employers. They added a year of work experience, some military experience, fewer periods for which no job was listed, computer skills and the like. This paid off for whites: Those with better resumes were called back for interviews 30% more than other whites. It didn't pay off for blacks: Precisely the same changes yielded only a 9% increase in callbacks.

    Someday Americans will be able to speak of racial discrimination in hiring in the past tense. Not yet.

    ***********************

    Oh yeah, I know many of you are wondering what leftist, commie, pinko rag out of New York published this. ;)

    http://online.wsj.com/article/0,,SB106262466678910800,00.html?mod=economy%5Fsecondary%5Fstories%5Fhs
     
  2. Oski2005

    Oski2005 Contributing Member

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    Good article, though I thought somebody here once labled the Wall Street Journal as part of the "Liberal Media" while going on a rant.
     
  3. El_Conquistador

    El_Conquistador King of the D&D, The Legend, #1 Ranking
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    With crime statistics like this, at what point does it quit becoming a 'racial stereotype' and begin becoming a truth? Must the percentage be 100% before it is acceptable to hold the belief that a black male is more likely to be convicted of a crime than a white male? These numbers are eye-popping.
     
  4. GreenVegan76

    GreenVegan76 Contributing Member

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    That's probably the saddest thing I've read this week. Wow. That is just, wow.
     
  5. Rocket River

    Rocket River Member

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    the operative word is CONVICTED

    Whether they do the same crime is irrelevant
    If you white you have a higher chance of 'getting off' than if you are minority

    It is a dominoe effect

    Cops more likely to let white folx off with warnings
    In fact during the late eighties in LA
    they were actively trying to 'TAG' young black men
    so that they would have a record and could be tracked

    but of course those things don't contribute to anything

    rocket River
     
  6. glynch

    glynch Contributing Member

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    Good to see social science study and debunk the old GOP canard that racism has disappeared.


    One of my favorites examples of racism in operation is the practice in the Old Confederacy to make it an automatic felony to have an old crack pipe as the cops test it and find a billionth of a gram of crack left in it. You then are convicted of a felony and can't vote. Powdered coke is treated differently and it is widely known that whites are more likely to snort than smoke cocaine..

    Doesn't tend to be done north of Dixie. They tend to treat powdered coke and crack more similarly. They don't tend to make simple possession an automatic felony. This is a sort of legal racial cleansing of the voters polls similarly to what Jeb did in Florida with his Republican voter elimination company.
     
  7. El_Conquistador

    El_Conquistador King of the D&D, The Legend, #1 Ranking
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    RocketRiver, your post is truly reflective of why many peoples' mindsets towards crime and racial statistics are flawed. These people attempt to make excuses and to look to blame others for their own problems. Are these people in denial? You bet. The first step in fixing a problem is to admit you have a problem. A very large number of Americans stereotype young, black males as being prone to commit crimes. This is fact. The statistics overwhelmingly support these people. Your accusation about a racist court system is really irrelevant to what happens *before they even land in court*. When will people begin to accept responsibility for their actions? When this happens, progress can begin to be made.
     
  8. Pipe

    Pipe Contributing Member

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    It's interesting that you focused on this statistic. Although the article was about job discrimination, I also thought this was the most significant fact mentioned in the article.

    My thoughts turned to my son, who is 11. I wondered how I would feel about my son's chances of staying out of trouble if I were black. Friends, peer presssure, the things all parents worry about, would be increased geometrically in this situation. I am glad I don't face problems of this magnitude, and sympathize for those who do.

    When will people begin to accept responsibility for their actions? When this happens, progress can begin to be made.

    I couldn't agree more. It's endemic in our society, but not just to blacks. Politicians, sports figures, everyday Joe's, nobody wants to take responsibilty for their actions anymore. But are the crime statistics really that simple? Do you think there could be other factors at work? For example, do you believe that whites and blacks have equal educational opportunities in our country? Do you believe our justice system is color blind?

    Let's say you are one of the majority of the black community (a thought that either horrifies or amuses many on this BBS, I am sure). I am referring of course to law-abiding good citizens. Yet you still can't get a job because employers (logically according to you and the statistics) think you are more likely to commit a crime. I am sure that most of that majority of blacks in that situation would just endeavor to persevere. Some, however, may not. Do you see any circularity to this issue?

    In what way are law abiding blacks not taking responsibility for their actions when they are discriminated against in the job market?
     
  9. Manny Ramirez

    Manny Ramirez The Music Man

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    Here are some sobering stats on crimes in 2001 in this country, taken from the Sourcebook of Criminal Justice Statistics:

    Arrests in Cities (out of possible population of 133,588,306):

    Total - 7,033,508
    White - 4,688,050
    Black - 2,169,815
    Other - 175,641

    Now, if we say that 12% of the population is black and 85% is white, this would be the population bases:

    White - 113,550,006 (.85*133,588,306)
    Black - 16,030,597 (.12*133,588,306)

    So, out of the population base for whites, 4.1% have been arrested for crimes in cities (4,688,050/113,550,006) and out of the population base for blacks, 13.5% have been arrested for crimes in cities (2,169,815/16,030,597).

    Just looking at murders and robberies, more blacks have been arrested for these crimes than whites despite being only 12% of the population!:eek:

    Here is the link, you will have to have Adobe Acrobat to view the table that I viewed:



    When statistics show that you are three times more likely to get arrested for a crime (blacks compared to whites), I find it hard to dismiss these facts to a racist court system.
     
  10. DaDakota

    DaDakota If you want to know, just ask!

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    Nevermind....
     
  11. bigtexxx

    bigtexxx Contributing Member

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    Blacks make up 12% of the total US population. They are overrepresented in cities, though. You need to up the 12% in your analysis.
     
  12. GreenVegan76

    GreenVegan76 Contributing Member

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    Those are sobering facts. Here's another one:

    About 95 percent of inmates in state prisons are men and 5 percent are women, according to the Survey of State Prison Inmates, a Bureau of Justice Statistics publication.
     
  13. El_Conquistador

    El_Conquistador King of the D&D, The Legend, #1 Ranking
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    This is obviously the result of systemic discrimination in the court system. :rolleyes:
     
  14. Oski2005

    Oski2005 Contributing Member

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    How come you guys are completely ignoring the study they conducted? You know, the one where a white person applying for a job with a criminal record has a better chance of being called back than a black person without a criminal record. What about being 50% less likely to get called for interviews if you have a "black" sounding name?
     
  15. El_Conquistador

    El_Conquistador King of the D&D, The Legend, #1 Ranking
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    We are not ignoring that story, we are instead using facts to support why people think the way they do.
     
  16. GreenVegan76

    GreenVegan76 Contributing Member

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    No, but why are we looking at minority crime rates, when the *sex* of the offender so obviously plays a much bigger role in crime.

    However, I agree with you 100-percent on the statistics that blacks are over-represented in the penal system.

    But why is that?

    Is it because a higher percentage is poor? Because most of them haven't had the opportunity to a good education? Because a higher percentage lives in urban environments, which have higher crime rates anyway? Because people won't hire them/give them a chance because they are poor, have a poor education and live in the inner city, and *everybody* knows blacks commit more crimes than whites?

    Nah. It's because they don't take responsibility for themselves.
     
    #16 GreenVegan76, Sep 5, 2003
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2003
  17. El_Conquistador

    El_Conquistador King of the D&D, The Legend, #1 Ranking
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    The definition of Freudian slip.

    btw-- It's spelled "penal"
     
  18. pgabriel

    pgabriel Educated Negro

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    So you are justifying racism. I'm glad you cleared that up.
     
  19. GreenVegan76

    GreenVegan76 Contributing Member

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    I think the story illustrates that very well. A white applicant with an 18-month prison sentence has the same shot at a job as an equally qualified black applicant with no prison record.

    I don't need statistics to tell me what that means.
     
  20. GreenVegan76

    GreenVegan76 Contributing Member

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    LOL

    I always get those words mixed up.

    (goes back to looking at naked prison guys)
     

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