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What it takes to play well with a dominant big man (inside presence)?

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by wizkid83, Apr 5, 2007.

  1. wizkid83

    wizkid83 Contributing Member

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    I ask this because of how T-Mac seems to play worse with Yao in the line-up (though the team as a whole are much better) as well as my observations of how Francis game started to suffer as Yao started to assert himself. We can see both players realize how important it is to have that inside presence and were willing to adapt/defer to the big man (though Francis didn't do it as much till his final season with us, ofcourse Yao wasn't at a level needed to carry a team until that time either), yet neither one seemed to be able to do it successfully. Thus I found myself asking three questions:

    What initally made the perimeter player successful? Why doesn't it work as well with an inside presence? What changes need to take place to fully utilize the perimeter player.

    First regarding what seperates a role player from a star player in the NBA. I think from an offensive stand-point it boils down to creating and hitting your own shot. Role players needs some else to get them shots, while star players are able to drive by their defender, pull up over their defender, side step, etc. to create shots for themselves. This is important on the offense because you need some one on offense to force the action. The top players are able to get to the hoop, coerce the defenseto make ajustments on the fly, and then either set up their teammates (Nash) or finish it themselves (Kobe) as the defense gets out of it's game plan. Both T-Mac and SF3 are talented in the regards in that they have the abillity to create the action.

    Why does it not work as well with an inside precense? I think the answer lies in what Pippen felt when he was here. I hate the guy but I have to admit that this was one of the most versatile guard/forward to ever play the game. Yet when he was here, he (from interviews) express his discontent of having to settle at the three point line waiting for a kick out. When you initate the offense from the perimeter, there's just more room to work with, it's harder for the defense to know where the offense is coming from. That uncertainty allows the wing players to move around more and present them more options when attacking on the offense (even off the ball)

    An offense that starts inside out makes it very easy for the defense to center in and mess with the our game plan. They know that the ball is going inside, there's only basically variation of a single event, cumulating in getting the ball the the inside and then act based on defense's reaction. Even during the championship years, you hear comments from the analyst regarding how the Rocket's game plan is a reactionary one, if they pack the paint, shoot more threes. if not, pound it in inside. Most of our game fell into two categories in those years, we hit the three with high percentage and win, or miss the threes and lose. Star wing plaers really doesn't change the offense that much regardless if they're in the game or not and definitely not playin up to their potential. You can say you want T-Mac to move around more with out the ball, but he's limited in what he can do. If he cuts inside, he risks bring another defender in the paint that can potential cause a turnover for Yao, if he move along the perimeter, he really wouldn't get the ball in a good position to score.

    So what to do? Pick and Roll, some high screens, or anything else that gets the guard player more involved on a play. Ohterwise, the wing player would not be fully utilized. The coach needs to find a way to involve T-Mac on the offense even though the ball will go through Yao. You need plays to start on the perimeter that ends up inside (and when starting on the perimeter, I don't meant an entry pass) I believe that you win championships with big man, but hey it takes Five, and when you're not using one of the top wing players to the full extent of their abillities, it places mighy hard burden on the inside.
     
    #1 wizkid83, Apr 5, 2007
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2007
  2. James23

    James23 Member

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    tmac hasn't played to his potential because he doesn't work on his body or game in the summer. on offense, he gets to touch the ball on almost every possession. if he attacked the rim more, shooted 80% of his FTs, made 50% of those wide open jumpers (thanks to yao's screen), he would have averaged 30 points and shooting 48% from the field.

    Pippen wasn't a great outside shooter, couldn't create his own offense, and didn't have a post-up game. That was why he wasn't a great player once he left the bulls.

    francis is simply a and1 player. he has no idea how to play team basketball.


    So, why is the rockets losing more games with yao playing and tmac sitting?

    just look at the roster, none of them can break down their man and create their own shot. teams like the warriors simply keep yao from getting the ball and forcing alston, head, and battier to put the ball on the floor.
     
  3. Ehsan

    Ehsan Member

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    We're doing just fine. We're the 2nd best 3-pt shooting team. We just need to upgrade our shooting efficiency at PG. Cut Rafer's minutes to 30, and get someone who can drain the 3 and play D at backup PG.
     
  4. TheGM

    TheGM Contributing Member

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    The Big man needs to dunk instead of watching what could have been easy dunks, roll of the rim. T-Mac also needs to dunk, but Yao gets to the rim more often and needs to slam it.
     
  5. battousai

    battousai Member

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    The problem with Rockets are that they still haven't fine tone a game plan with both Yao and Tmac in the lineup. Maybe it has to do with their injuries and they not playing with each other long enough. maybe it has to do withour offensive plan with JVG. I think Yao and Tmac will to creat more chemistry with each other and fine that bond. Yao and Steve has a higher chemistry than Yao and tmac.

    The problem I see with rockets is that once Yao is back, the rest of the team leave the inside wide open for Yao. it was like Yao's duty to occupy the painted area. it seems like no one were allow to dribble inside or dunk inside beside Yao. Everyone started to camp outside the painted area as well as Tmac shooting jumpers.

    serveral problems why this happen:
    -no one taugh Yao how to drag his defenders out of the painted area in order to allow teammates to drive inside.
    -Yao's speed and his slow foot work limiting him on moving around quickly.
    -teamamtes needs to learn how to drive-inside and while Yao need to drag his defender out in order to creat room.
    -we need Yao to better position and fight off his defenders
    -need better pick and roll plan. sloan has it down the best.
     
  6. declan32001

    declan32001 Member

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    Duh. Bonzi, Bonzi, Bonzi. I was interested to read Bonzi said he was going to be on the playoff roster. I'm at a loss as to what JVG's doing now.
     
  7. Verbatim

    Verbatim Member

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    Yao is in the paint because he causes the most problems for the defense there. He can post deep and get good looks. (if they can get him the ball). He can rebound and he catches great for easy shots.

    Yao cannot be stopped unless they other guys can't get him the ball. The lob pass needs to be practiced more. Timing is everthing. A few breakaway slams from fronting defense will force the other team to change.

    When Yao has the ball deep, what Hayes does is exactly what needs to be done. Cuts into the paint. If the guy on Hayes commit to double Yao, then it's over (layup for Hayes).

    This is not Rocket science. Yao needs to be used and often to punish the other team because there is no single coverage that can stop him. Double teams can be beat if they get it timed right. Imagine all the layups that can happen if the lob pass is done correctly.
     
  8. sbyang

    sbyang Member

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    Look at Kobe's game now and his game when Shaq was still around. It's fair to say that his game 'suffered' when he was playing with Shaq. Of course Tmac's game has to change with Yao on the floor. It's all about how the team as a whole does with both guys playing.
     
  9. McGradySNKT

    McGradySNKT Contributing Member

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    Well, Kobe and Shaq didn't play well together until they fired Del Harris

    who ironically got rid of Nick Van Exel (our Mike James), and they havent had a solid pg since.

    Im not saying its one particular thing all around, but Im saying.

    It's better to build a team around the stars and have them coached that way, than to biuld one around the coach.
     
  10. dookiester

    dookiester Member

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    exactly. if the rockets can't get yao the ball, then we might as well not have him. that's what was so frustrating about last night's game, yao was working his ass off to get position, seal his man, and everyone else was incompetent when it came to getting him the ball or otherwise taking advantage of the attention yao was receiving. if we're just using tmac as a bailout when we can't get yao the ball, then we're wasting tmac as well. having 2 superstars on your team should mean you are dictating the offense and getting a shot you like every single time. if yao is receiving the attention, then tmac should be able to take over. same vice versa. there is absolutely no adequate excuse for a team with tmac and yao to not be an offensive powerhouse and one of the deadliest teams in the nba, rather than just a team known for its hard-work and defense.
     
  11. youyou

    youyou Member

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    i wonder how many guards we need to change before ppl finally realize or are willing to admit the problem is yao himself.
    wait and see.
     
  12. aaronnguyen

    aaronnguyen Member

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    Our problem still down the point guard position because we do not have the point who could penetrate to break down the defense and open the inside for the big man. And also we have to have a consistent shooter to be able to hit the open shot when the ball is being passed from inside.
     
  13. Queeni

    Queeni Contributing Member

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    Good questions, wizkid83.

    I think it is normal that either player will suffer in terms of scoring when they play together since shot attempts are shared. As long as the team performs well, I am not worried about that. But it looks like the potential offense power of combing both of them has not been fully explored. It could be due to following reasons:

    (1) Lack of more dynamic offense plan besides inside-out. JVG could learn some from Suns. Start offense from perimeter (by a good play-maker like T-Mac), finish it in the low post (by a good finisher like Yao, Hayes, T-Mac). It will be very unpredictable and deadly for other teams. Suns can do that because of Nash, only T-Mac on Rockets has the play-making ability close to Nash now.

    (2) Lack of sharp passes to low post. In the game against Warriors, there are many cases like this: Yao got a position, our guarder hesitated one second, Yao got fronted, our guarder couldn't pass the ball or forced the pass (and a TO). Few cases like this: Yao got a position, our guarder passed it immediately, Yao scored or was fouled. No case like this: Yao is moving to the post, our guarder is penetrating and passes the ball to where Yao will catch, Yao finishes it with a dunk (and one).

    (3) Lack of consistent 3-pt shooting. When our guarders are on, it's a win. Off, it's a loss. We don't have one guy who can shoot 3-pt under pressure. The reliable (open) 3-pt shooters are Head and Battier, but Head is usually destroyed at the defense end (like last night against Warrior). The unreliable 3-pt shooters are Alston and T-Mac. When they are on, we win. Unfortunately, they are off most time.
     
    #13 Queeni, Apr 5, 2007
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2007
  14. EGYPT

    EGYPT Member

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    I agree, and I have to add that Kobe will not win a championship on his own either.
     
  15. chiorsung

    chiorsung Member

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    Oh, got you,YOH. Get out of here.
     
  16. emjohn

    emjohn Contributing Member

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    Building a team from scratch starting with a dominant center, you'd ideally go for:
    -A roster adept at two things:
    --(1) creating offense from a defense built to create turnovers
    --> Players able to lurk in the passing lanes with the speed and athleticism to excel in fastbreaks.

    --(2) Sharply executing an inside out halfcourt offense
    -->Decent IQ players able to feed (and refeed) the post and nail outside jumpers (20+ ft to 3s)

    A secondary trait that greatly benefits this sort of team is having forwards that move well without the ball to cut from the weakside - getting layups generated from the center drawing double teams.

    Our roster isn't exactly ideal in those regards, but fair. Rafer (12th in the league) and McGrady do a very good job at gambling for steals. Chuck Hayes has been able to get many layups off of weakside dives. Rafer, Head, McGrady, and Shane have been able to nail 3s though no one would say we're a 'pick your poison' squad.

    We could stand to improve if our goal is to build around Yao - both in terms of personnel and in performance.

    Evan
     
  17. Yetti

    Yetti Contributing Member

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    The Game of the Rockets would be greatly improved if we had a
    penetrating playmaker who coud dish off. All scorers would benifit
    from such a player! At present our starting Point Guard is NOT a
    playmaker! In todays game when using a great inside presence like Yao
    a playmaker becomes an urgent requirement as teams now know how to
    stop Yao from scoring. Alternatively we get an athletic seven foot small
    forward who can pass into Yao in all situations, sort of like Hory and Hakeem
    but even taller. :p
     
  18. SamFisher

    SamFisher Contributing Member

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    Bonzi was talking about his NBA2k7 franchise mode playoffs. He's averaging 57 pts a game too.
     
  19. AstroRocket

    AstroRocket Member

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    When teams are defending us like the Warriors did last night, a Yao/high post, Bonzi/low post offensive alternative gameplan could be pretty effective. Of course, the mere possibility of this would send JVG into a coma.
     
  20. emjohn

    emjohn Contributing Member

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    I'm still mournful that we don't bother with any Yao high post sets, aside from end-of-game high screen and rolls.

    Evan
     

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