Now, as some of you may know, I am an Australian Rockets fan. I live in Sydney, and have never been to the USA. That gives me zero credibility on your country. I also understand that any negative comments I might say will be attacked. Fair enough. I also realise how ignorant stereotypes are... I know how frustrating it is when Americans ask "do you have Kangaroo's in the streets in Sydney" (yep...plenty of them...they drive cars and catch trains with the rest of us) So...I acknowledge the dangers of stereotyping... In spite of all that, I must say, some stereotypes about your country just seem to ring too true at times. Particularly when it comes to Politics. There is a stereotype long held here (and I must say, in EVERY country I have traveled to) that the American political process is one of the worlds great jokes. "Only in America" is the saying everyone uses to anologise political stupidity. The perception being that your election process is just a case of some nuts, funded by big $ and backed by religious freaks, running on platforms of incredible ignorance...whilst always reverting back to cliched nationalism as there ultimate justification. Now...having watched George Bush this week....what else needs to be said. He takes all the cliches and multiplies them by a factor of a million. People here openly laugh at the bloke whenever he is on tv spitting out the most crazy cliched crap we have heard...all the while thinking "do the Yanks actually believe this guy?"!!? Seriously, as I said, I really don't want to offend any of you guys...but is Bush the best you have got as the opposition?! I know Clinton has his faults, but I can say he is respected world wide for his charisma and intellect. Bush just seems to be all the cliches, all the stereotypes, all the jokes ...rolled into the one package. You will be the laughing stock of the world with him in charge. Just an outsiders opinion... ------------------
You may want to consider the fact that during elections all you hear from anyone for the most part is cliches. Yes, during his election run, Clinton used them as well. BTW, you stated your comments as if Clinton will be running in this election... he won't be, or should I say, he can't run for re-election. Al Gore (the man with all the charisma of a dead mushroom) will be Bush's opponent. I stopped following politics long ago for the same reasons you talk about in your post. Election runs are catered to the emotions of people instead of their intellect. In high school I took a trip to the Texas House of Representatives to watch their voting process. I was appalled to see how many people stood by, chatted, and joked around as votes were being cast. Some didn't vote because they didn't think it was important enough apparently. At that point, I completely lost interest in politics. Also, to further answer your question, the President in this country doesn't have the "omnipotent" or near-absolute power that so many other world leaders seem to possess. The system of checks and balances in this country, while at times lethargic and slow-moving, is also a great governmental process. Many say the most powerful man in the US, if not the world, is not our president, but actually Alan Greenspan, the Fed chairman. Mere words from his mouth can rock economic sectors on at least 3-4 continents. In my daily day-to-day activities, I worry more about what Greenspan says than what Clinton says because in my mind it affects me directly far more. What I'm trying to say is, no matter who gets elected, this country will be safe. This country is more than just one person. Politics in this country has and always will, it seems, cater to the emotions of people and not their intellects. Politicians will say what you want to hear, not necessarily what you need to know. Bush is no different from 99% of the rest of the politicians in that respect. Personally, you talk about Clinton having charisma and being respected throughout the world for that... I find it disgusting that he's in office and a symbol of this country that gave my family an opportunity to come here and excel. No matter who is President, there's no place on this planet I'd rather be than here in "The States".... except maybe when I retire... then I might move down to Australia and catch a ride with those bus-riding kangaroos you have there... those pouches they have must come in handy for spare change/bus fare. ------------------ Just shut up and post [This message has been edited by Dr of Dunk (edited August 05, 2000).] [This message has been edited by Dr of Dunk (edited August 05, 2000).]
ScreamingRocketJet, Welcome to Woop Woop. Thanks for your opinions. I find these same opinions enlightening over and over again because my conservative friends always make the argument that Clinton has no international respect. MSNBC showed a French revue of the Convention yesterday, and it was hilarious. The announcer called 'bs' on many of the main topics on Bush's speech. ------------------ "At one of these governors' conferences, George [W. Bush] turns to me and says: 'What are they talking about?' I said: 'I don't know.' He said: 'You don't know anything, do you?' And I said: 'Not one thing.' [Bush] said: 'Neither do I.' And we kind of high-fived." --Republican Gov. Gary Johnson of New Mexico shares a verbal exchange that took place between he and George W. Bush. (Quote is from the Los Angeles Times, 5/31/00) Dubyah Speaks
ScreamingRocketJet, Your comments are definitely welcome. I know you are correct - I lived in Paris and they laughed at the process - they also could not imagine the limited nature of mainstream political thought - having only two parties that are not that far apart, as opposed to their multi-party system. Nationalism will always be strong in the US, as we are pretty isolated. We have not had to grow together in close proximity with other powerful nations, as europe has. Keeping in form, your stereotypes of American politics is more than 99.5% of Americans would know about Australian politics. ------------------ Play the Piano Drunk Like a Percussion Instrument Until the Fingers Begin to Bleed a Bit
Thanks for your opinions fella's Dr...yep, I know Clinton can't run again and I know Gore is the man. (does the guy part time model for Ken Doll's btw?! He seems to have the personality and appearance of one!) Also, the pouches definitley are great value for holding change. Better still...grab one by it's neck and ride it down the street. Thus eliminating the need to catch a bus altogether On a more serious note, I really enjoyed your post. I agree with what you have said and I am aware of it. I guess the main thing that always concerns me in America is the way that $ dictates. We have a limitation placed here on the amounts allowed to be spent on 'Political Advertising' so as to 'try' (try being the operative word) and ensure that money doesn't rule. I was really interested in seeing how Bradley went a few months ago. I thought he offered a hell of a lot of common sense and seemed to really bring something different to the table. I guess that's why he lost... Also, isn't he mates with Phil Jackson? That should have ruled him out immediately if so I know yours is a conservative country at heart, maybe that's for the best as a radical America may do as much harm as it could do good. To Rimbaud and Achebe, It is generally held world wide that Clinton is respected. Certainly in terms of his intellect. His character is the butt of a lot of jokes, but never the man's capabilities...unlike someone like Reagan, who can't be mentioned without literally everyone laughing. Serious...I still can't contemplate how on earth a moronic B- Grade actor became a President?! LOL Regrettably, Australian Politics has followed a conservative trend lately (on a much smaller scale)We are a country that has probably had life too easy for too long. Thus, we have had born a political apathy that is inbred in most people here. Certainly, we have nothing like the political thought (in terms of scale) that exists in Europe... Oh well, life here in Australia isn't exactly hard compared to the rest of the world. If an easy life means political apathy, then so be it... ------------------
Long Post... I have read ALOT of the political posts the last week and have been utterly amazed at the slanders done to Republicans, all the while Praising the democrats. This is my rant, sometimes it might be confusing but it is something I feel strongly about and might have gotten carried away. For the length, I apologize. As for the rest, I stand behind it. I NEVER thought I would see the day where someone said that Bill Clinton is more respected than Ronald Reagan. Blows my mind. If Mr Reagan wasnt respected here in the US, then he wouldnt have been re-elected with the margin he did over Walter Mondale. And his VP wouldnt have been elected with the wide margin he was over Dukakis. Sure, Bill has brains. No one is disputing it. But for the last 8 years he has disgraced the Presidency. I have read everyones posts about ANTI-Republican and ANTI-Bush on the other posts and it amazes me. Bill Clinton has ONE interest. And that is Bettering himself. In case you didnt know, his 20 year old daughter was ADVISING him in the middle east peace talks. (True). So we elect him and get a 20 year old? He has had a GREAT impact on the YOUTH of America and it is NOT good. 11 year old are having Parties NOW! The parties they are having include LAP dances and ORAL sex for the boys. Am I the only one that sees this as being VERY ****ing disturbing!? IF the President doesnt consider Oral SEX, to be Sexual intercourse, than the kids feel the same way. Dont believe me, it was on 20/20 and MANY other shows. Of course, it is not on the Liberal media channels. If you want a TRULY unbiased View check out FOXNEWS. In Massachusetts, a class of 14 year olds were being taught a class that the FEDERAL government made the school teach (do to getting some extra funds). Want to know what they taught the young impressionable kids? Here goes: One horrible thing was they taught the kids the correct way for a boy to FIST his boyfriend. To the uninitiated that is sticking your fingers up your gay lovers ass. Another was the Etiquette of Swallowing c*m! Was it mean if I spit and not swallow?! I am serious! Two teachers were fired, but not after much complaining. Tell me, if you have kids that are 14, is this something you want them learning at school with your FEDERAL tax money? Deplorable. Bill CLinton has one goal in mind after leaving office. And that is to oversea the United NAtions. That is WHY he has given up so much of America's power and pull overseas to the UN. That is why he has Sold China our NAtional Security secrets. Anyone disagree? Then please tell me why the secrets disappeared then Chinamen were sleeping in the Lincoln Bedroom... Watch FOXNEWS and you will see THE SAME Chinamen tell their story of how they BOUGHT their way into Bill CLintons White House. If you think Bill Clinton is the reason for the economy then PLEASE tell me HOW he did it? Was it by his Tax Increase in 1993? Or how about his Veto on the Marriage Tax Break just this last week? Oh, I guess it was that great NAFTA. Has ANYONE heard of ANY business coming here because of it? NOPE! But MANY MANY Business' have gone overseas because of it, Costing MANY jobs. You say, Unemployment is low. Want to know why? The Former Welfare people are guards at your local Federal Prisons. True. Women, no bigger than 5'2" are watching and Guarding US citizens from Murderers, Rapist, Molesters, etc.. Feeling safe? Funny how people LAugh at the mention of Reagan but the ONE and ONLY reason Russia dealt with us in the 80s was because Gorbachev truly trusted Ronald Reagan. He trusted his word. And he was fearful of what would happen if he tested Reagan. Gorbachev once told a story about when he and Reagan had their first meeting. He was trying to see how far Reagan would bend over backward for him. He pushed too much, and Reagan left Switerland immediately. We wasnt going to allow a FOREIGN nation to push the USA around. Now we have Terrorist bombing in America. When Reagan announced his plans for STAR WARS, which was the Defense of such Terroists bombs, etc... He was laughed at and called an extremist. With STAR WARS we wouldnt have had the bombing in Atlanta, Oklahoma, or New York center bombing. Now Clinton wants to initiate a STAR WARS type defense to protect us. Yet he is ALSO Wanting to give that same technology over to other countries, some our enemies. That makes sense doesnt it?! nope. And isnt it funny how Clinton's politcal hero is Reagan. He has said it many times he liked how Reagan was a Republican Prez with a Democratic Congress and he was able to get things done. I dont care about Bill CLintons sex life. But he LIED under oath. That to me was enough to remove him from office. It is funny how alot of the liberals were screaming about the conservatives wanting him out, yet they somehow overlooked the fact that if he was gone Al GOre would be Prez. They were kicking out a Democrat for a Republican. To me, the whole justice system we have is based on the Oath. And if the oath is broken than that person would be held in contempt and often thrown in Jail. So how did Clinton get out of it? The liberal media. Yes, I see you shaking your heads, but can you HONESTLY tell me that Al Gore and Bill Clinton arent treated much better in the press than Bob Dole and George W Bush? The whole party of Clinton, Gore is corrupt and dirty. Dont believe it? Then why is ALL of Bill CLintons assosciates either in Jail, or dead? ANd they arent dying of natural causes.... Anyone remember Vince Foster? That is not enough to make you think??? Then why do his trusted advisors leave him and have NOTHING but bad things to say? Dick Morris is a MAIN cog. He was the reason Bill was elected in the first place. YES, Bill Clinton is smart. I never said he wasnt. And from all I have read or heard he is a very nice guy. Someone you want to go have a drink with. Yes, Bob Dole was an incompetent Boob. Any man that was a Partys choice for President should NOT BE HAWKING Viagra! Funny how on David Letterman all we see is ANTI-BUSH. He never mentioned that HIS writers wrote Hillary's jokes when she was on did he? Should a Presidential candidate have to appear on his lousy show, which is seen by, 2-3 million people, just to shut him up? That is what he wants. EVERY day he mentions how Al Gore would love to debate him on Lettermans show. And now David is saying he will do Everything in his power to bring Bush down. Watch Ted Koppel, Peter Jennings, or Tom Brokaw and you see the Same preferential treatment. It amazes me if an intelligent person cannot notice that after watching the evening news. Everyone knows these conventions are Pep Rallies. So why does Al Gore have to slam every speech made by the Republicans? Why is Clinton attacking George W Bush? Let them hold their pep rally. Let the Democrats hold theirs.. Then let them debate. And may the best candidate win. But PLEASE dont tell me that Clinton is a respected President. He has disgraced the office of the President, and has Embarrassed Any intelligent American in the process. Isnt it funny how there are SOOOO many Anti-Bush posts the last week or so? Anyone want to bet that those same people will be PRAISING AL GORE when he has his pep rally? Isnt that a bit hypocritical? ------------------ "Her Box Started Buzzing Ever Since She Heard The CRÜE"
Bill Clinton is the master of B.S. He is the sole reason for my disinterest in politics at the moment. ScreamingRocketJet must not have heard any of his speeches prior to his first election. His entire campaign was based on lies. The guy is a joke. You have him to thank for the current state of American politics, which is dominated by those who are most effective at preying on the ignorance of the masses. Thanks to Bill, it is now more important who looks the best in front of the camera, not who has more substance. ------------------ Nothin left to do Too many things were said To ever make it feel Like yesterday did
Dude, how could "Star Wars" have prevented the bombings in OK, NYC and Atl? That's ridiculous. I think you've been listening to too much Rush and other such conspiracy theorists. I for one am proud to have had Bill Clinton as President. [This message has been edited by outlaw (edited August 05, 2000).]
Outlaw, Star Wars was for missiles Lauched at the US. I truly believe had that gone through then there would have been NO attacks on US citizens on US soil. I am happy for you that you are proud of Clinton. But can you tell me why you are proud of him? how has he made you Proud of him? And please tell me how Rush is a Conspiracy Theorist? I believe he goes to far, in the name of Entertainment. However, if you were to listen to him with an open mind and open ears then I believe you might change your opinion of Clinton. ------------------ "Her Box Started Buzzing Ever Since She Heard The CRÜE" [This message has been edited by DUDE (edited August 05, 2000).]
------------------ "At one of these governors' conferences, George [W. Bush] turns to me and says: 'What are they talking about?' I said: 'I don't know.' He said: 'You don't know anything, do you?' And I said: 'Not one thing.' [Bush] said: 'Neither do I.' And we kind of high-fived." --Republican Gov. Gary Johnson of New Mexico shares a verbal exchange that took place between he and George W. Bush. (Quote is from the Los Angeles Times, 5/31/00) Dubyah Speaks
outlaw, Didn't you know that McVeigh (sp?) drove that van through space (from the middle east, of course) and the building blew up when he landed in front of it. Star Wars could have easily shot him down. It can also destroy the underground missils that blew up at WTC. It could have easily shot that little tiny bomb in the middle of a large crowd in Atlanta. Sad. ------------------ Play the Piano Drunk Like a Percussion Instrument Until the Fingers Begin to Bleed a Bit
The politics of all candidates remind me of that Simpsons episode where Kang and Kodos (the aliens) inhabit the bodies of Clinton and Dole and run for president. One of my favorite scenes went like this: Kang: Abortions for all! Crowd: Boo! Kang: Allright, abortions for no one! Crowd: Boo! Kang: Allright, abortions for some. Miniature American flags for others. Crowd (waving miniature American flags): Yeah!!! ------------------ Save Our Rockets and Comets SaveOurRockets.com
Dude, I used to listen to Rush almost everyday back in 1992-93 when I was really into politics. Maybe he's changed since but he seemed like a paranoid nutcase back then. The reasons I'm proud of Bill is probably the same reasons you're ashamed of him. We just differ idealogically. But since you asked: He's humanized the office of the president. I hate when politicians are deified like the way Reagan was. He's not perfect and we shouldn't expect him to be.(And most people thought a hummer wasn't sexual intercourse even before 1999). Bill's cabinet had the most minorities and women of any president ever. He appointed 2 qualified and intelligent SC Justices. He tried to end the ban on gays in the military and halfway succeeded. He protected abortion. He attacked the tobacco companies. He raised the minimum wage. http://www.whitehouse.gov/WH/Accomplishments/additional.html He was a good president and I'm going to miss him. I wish him luck in his future endeavors.
Outlaw, I can appreciate your opinions. But like you said I guess we differ idealogically. I NEVER said Reagan was perfect. He was far from it. But I think he was much better than Clinton. Bush Senior was a letdown and Dole was a boob. You said most people thought a hummer wasnt sexual intercourse... I disagree. Why is it called ORal Sex if it isnt Sex? Isnt the guy 'enjoying' himself just the same? The band he tried to end on gays in the military ended up being a joke, I think. He could have fought it a little harder, yet he didnt. And the final 'Dont ask Dont tell' is a joke. How does that end the ban on gays? If a gay guy says something, then he gets banned still. I am pro-life. I truly believe that life begins at conception. My problem with abortion is that is has turned into another birth control. I read somewhere on this site about pro-life means having 'more bastards in an orphanage'. I disagree. Adoption is a great option. There are MANY MANY people that cant have children but want them. The entire adoption industry needs to be shaken up. I have friends that were on a list for three years to adopt. They tried many different agencies. Finally they just went to Russia to adopt. And I dont know if you know the truth about Partial Birth abortions but they are downright scary. As for the minimum wage, that is something I disagree on also. Yes the republicans in the Congress passed bills on it but I think overall it is bad. Why? Because I think it hurts the smaller business owner. (these wages I use are made up. I know the wage isnt $8 yet, but it soon will be) An owner who can afford two people Full-time at $5 but when the wage goes up to $8 he can only afford One person. It makes the prices go up also. Look at the movie ticket prices, etc..Everything has gone up in price. So the Guy that went to College, got a degree, and was making $10 an hour was doing very good before. But now, with minimum wage creeping up, his wage suddenly isnt that good. So he has less disposable income, yet he still has the same debts he has to pay off. Tobacco companies.. First, I dont smoke. I think it is disgusting. However, I see nothing wrong with the individuals choice to smoke if they want. I find it very scary that former smokers who knew the bad things smoking can do to you can end up suing the industry for $125Billion. When are people going to stop passing blame and take responsiblity for their own choices and actions? Isnt it hypocritical to want people to have the right to commit an abortion to end a life, yet you dont want them to have the right to smoke a cigarette? BTW. Rush certainly isnt why I feel this way. I can only take so much of him also. He is very over the top and gets on my nerves to easily. However, I do love www.drudgereport.com and FOXNEWS. Both, I believe report unbiased news. ------------------ "Her Box Started Buzzing Ever Since She Heard The CRÜE" [This message has been edited by DUDE (edited August 06, 2000).] [This message has been edited by DUDE (edited August 06, 2000).]
Rimbaud, I find your humor lacking. My point is that to me Clinton is WAY more concernedabout self promotion than anything else. His self promotion is done in the way of 'sharing' things with other nations, yet the whole time weakening our nation. If the Star Wars defense system had gone online when it was originally thought of, I truly believe we would not have been the target of those terrorists threats. But with Mr Clinton, he was far more interested in cutting money on defense and sharing information with other nations than in protecting the people that put him in office. If Star Wars was implimented, I believe it would have sent a message to other countries that we werent to be 'messed' with. But it was ridiculed and voted against right from the beginning. Isnt it funny how NOW after the fact he is trying to come up with a national defense similar to Star Wars? Of course it is. CHina and other nations have the USA secrets on Nuclear warheads. hmmm, wonder how they got there? There is much more, but I am sure you people that disagree with me on this site wish me to be quiet. however, as much as you wish to think, I dont seem to be alone. Dont you find it odd that in this ERA of the great economy that the presiding Vice President has tried to allienate himself from the President on may occasions? And that a governor from Texas is beating said Vice President in many of the polls? I dont believe in polls at all. If I did I would bring up the fact that Bush Senior had a VERY high rating after the Gulf War, and yet a short year later was defeated. He lost entirely too many votes to Ross Perot and lost to CLinton. ------------------ "Her Box Started Buzzing Ever Since She Heard The CRÜE"
LOL @ Jeff! very funny and Very true! ------------------ "Her Box Started Buzzing Ever Since She Heard The CRÜE"
My problem with abortion is that is has turned into another birth control. I read somewhere on this site about pro-life means having 'more bastards in an orphanage'. I disagree. Adoption is a great option. There are MANY MANY people that cant have children but want them. Adoption is a terrific option if it is an option. My wife an I have actually looked into it, so I know. Here are some of the issues: 1. The vast majority of children put up for adoption are minorities while the vast majority of parents wanting to adopt are white. Most white parents don't want a non-white child. 2. Many of the children put up for adoptions end up in multiple foster homes because they cannot be placed due to ethnicity, special needs or age. 3. The adoption process is long and difficult because everyone wants a white infant. In addition, there is a history of abuse among adopted children because of a less-than-adequate screening process. 4. Adoption has a stigma attached to it. Many would-be parents who have run out of options having children prefer to use fertility drugs or in-vetro fertilization to have children because there are many perceived risks with adopted children and there is a stigma also attached to not being able to have a child on your own. Adoption is simply not for everyone and adding children to the pool of those who need homes won't solve the problem. We are living in a world that is drastically overcrowded and an Anglican Archbishop said recently that married couples who choose not to HAVE children are self-indulgent and it is our DUTIES as married couples to populate the world as it says in the Bible. There is a lot of pressure on people to live up to an ideal that doesn't exist. Having a big house, a nice car and a family are most common among those pressures. While it would be nice to believe that every child has a place, it simply isn't true. The chances of a black crack baby getting a home are slim and none and many of the children available for adoptions are in the special needs category. How many attractive, healthy people do you honestly believe give up their children for adoption? There are already a large number of children available who just aren't wanted. Adding to that list won't help them. As for the minimum wage, that is something I disagree on also. Yes the republicans in the Congress passed bills on it but I think overall it is bad. Why? Because I think it hurts the smaller business owner. (these wages I use are made up. I know the wage isnt $8 yet, but it soon will be) An owner who can afford two people Full-time at $5 but when the wage goes up to $8 he can only afford One person. It makes the prices go up also. Look at the movie ticket prices, etc..Everything has gone up in price. So the Guy that went to College, got a degree, and was making $10 an hour was doing very good before. But now, with minimum wage creeping up, his wage suddenly isnt that good. So he has less disposable income, yet he still has the same debts he has to pay off. This, to me, is placing the well-being of the individual with money over the one's without it. What a tragedy that we might have to pay a little more for a movie or that the guy that has the degree has a less leftover to afford luxuries! What about compassion for those who don't have a degree and don't make $10 per hour. I guess these people should just get a degree and be done with it, right? What is so unbelievable about this situation is that most of the people working the minimum wage jobs do the most thankless and difficult work for no money. Have you ever tried earning a living for yourself and your family at Burger King? They are looked down upon by society and criticized for their laziness. Yeah, right! If business has to adjust and we, as consumers, have to adjust to a higher minimum wage, I am perfectly willing to deal with that as both a business owner and a consumer. Human life and compassion are FAR more important to me than the money I put in my pocket. So what if we can't afford everything we want. That is a small price to pay to know that people who don't have all that we do are able to have a little better life. I prefer to believe that it is our responsibility as humans to do what is right towards our fellow human even if it means making some sacrifices of our own. I know that isn't the American way of thinking, but it should be. ------------------ Save Our Rockets and Comets SaveOurRockets.com
Dude, Why would a guy carrying a bomb in his backpack care about Star Wars? 1. Terrorist bombings are not always foreign. 2. There will always be crazy people that can build bombs themselves. 3. Star Wars, if it even could work, would only have implications with large missils. 4. It would not have changed anything. Let's say Star Wars worked 95% of the time, and those evile FOREIGNERS realized they could not fire missils at us. Wouldn't the logical conclusion from that be that if they wanted something to explose, they would send someone to manually detonate a bomb? Star Wars had nothing to do with anti-terrorist activity. My humor was merely a reaction to someone trying to draw a link between things that are so unrelated that it is laughable. And, yes, I am sure that Clinton flew to China and gave them everything so that they could bomb the US and then he would have gained something when he was dead or had no country to lead. He also gave all those weapons to Saddam so he could screw with us later...oh wait, that was done during the Reagan/Bush era to serve as a buffer against Iran - sorry. Point is, your black and white reading of presidents based on political parties is rather naive. Do not misunderstand and think that I am defending Clinton. I am not a Democrat. I am not a Republican basher. If you want to argue/disagree/ridicule me, please do not base it on faulty assumptions. bomb Cambodia promote slaughter in East Timor support evil regimes show everyone who is boss live long and prosper eat your meat wash behind your ears huh? don't ask me ------------------ Play the Piano Drunk Like a Percussion Instrument Until the Fingers Begin to Bleed a Bit
DoD, great response. it is easy to rag on our elections because of the fanfare. thanks for explaining there is more to our politicians than the fanfare they must do during elections.
Dude, you lost all credibility with that comment right there. Drudge is one of the most biased "reporters" ever. ------------------ Going for the Rolls Royce! visit www.swirve.com
