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Why Restricting Guns & Magazines in NOT the Answer

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Svpernaut, Jan 15, 2013.

  1. Svpernaut

    Svpernaut Contributing Member

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    I've brought this up several times in the gun topics (and no I'm not going to link them here), but I believe it deserves a discussion on it's own.

    One huge reason I think banning or outlawing a class of firearm is silly, is because people can now make their own weapons and large capacity magazines. 3D printing and low cost personal 3-AXIS CNC machines are going to make gun laws pointless.

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygre...acity-ammo-clips-to-thwart-proposed-gun-laws/

    <iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/q10Jz2qIog8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

    Now, I'd actually take a different route than these guys. The most important part of the magazine is the top and the follower, which feeds the rounds. I'd take a low capacity 5, 7 or 10 round magazine, cut the bottom off it it, create a sleeve to extend it and replace the spring... and bam, perfectly working high capacity magazine. However, eventually their CAD drawing will be perfect so this step won't be needed.

    Now 3D printing an entire weapon is some ways off, but only a few years at most. With that said though, you can also easily use a CNC machine to mill the remaining parts at home.

    <iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/JAdnZ6xsWtU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

    You can actually make many fully functional parts quickly in plastic for testing before milling...

    <iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/rx9p9sBul70" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

    The 2-AXIS CNC machines seen in these videos are a few thousand dollars, in a few years 3-AXIS CNC machines will be that cost, making it even faster and easier. Not too long, and you could have a personal sized water-jet on your desktop as needed as well.

    As far as 3D printing goes, it is already DIRT CHEAP to do.

    Here are links to 4 different low-cost 3D printer options -
    http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1682938109/robo-3d-printer?ref=live
    http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/formlabs/form-1-an-affordable-professional-3d-printer?ref=live
    http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/wjsteele/ultra-bot-3d-printer?ref=live
    http://www.kickstarter.com/projects...er-raising-the-bar-of-open-source-3d?ref=live

    You can actually build your own decent 3D printer for about $400, and you can build a great one for about $1000. I have a buddy who bought a kit a year ago, and already has one. I've been looking at one for a few years and I've purchased a ROBO 3D from above.

    http://www.3ders.org/3d-printer/how-to-build-3d-printer.html

    Now I didn't purchase my 3D printer to print gun parts and magazines, but if the government is going to step in, I can assure you tens of thousands of people will.

    I've actually created an entire CAD 3D drawing of my Walther P99 pistol that I could easily feed in to a 3D printer for parts or molds. I did so for a hobby purpose, and for 3D design for a game... but it can easily be migrated over to real life because my drawing is in full detail. I can import it in to Solid Works and have a fully working mock-up in a few days for about a $100 in plastic... and I am a novice, I was a CAD designer for two years, over a decade ago. Here's part of it (which I drew three years ago)...

    [​IMG]

    There are already thousands of experts out there, and they are working together to complete full CAD drawings of thousands of different objects for 3D printing, including weapons.

    The bottom line is, rifles and high capacity rounds are responsible for a fraction of the gun deaths in America. Stopping the war on drugs would be the cheapest, easiest and safest way to greatly reduce the murder rate... and I personally think it is sad that thousands of minorities are killed every year in the inner city by guns in drug/gang related crimes, and they don't get a second thought... and no I don't think that simply because it is in line with my pro-gun stance.

    In my OPINION, the best option we have is to end the war on drugs and get people treatment. This will GREATLY reduce crime rates in the inner city. Violent crime rates in cities of 250,000 or more are 4 times higher than the rest of America.

    I'd take the money saved from the war on drugs and part goes to treatment for those arrested for drug related crimes. Also, use the money to fund mental health treatment and mental health studies and education.

    Banning a type of gun is only a stop-gap, and misguided when the larger problem is still going to be ignored.

    Please note, I am for the decriminalization of most drugs, not legalization... two completely different things.

    TL,DR - In less than a decade, anyone who wants a weapon will be able to build one for a few thousand dollars in their basement in a day or two. We MUST get to the root of WHY people do these things, not HOW they do these things.
     
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  2. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member
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    So in places like England where the guns are banned, has there been a huge problem with people making their own?
     
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  3. Svpernaut

    Svpernaut Contributing Member

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    There hasn't, but there will be. This is an issue scaring the living **** out of politicians around the world. You'll see huge discussions about 3D printing in the next few years.

    They don't understand the technology, so they fear it... just like many of the ancient jackasses in Washington don't understand the internet and the need for free information for all. (See SOPA/PIPA for details)

    EDIT - The communities of CAD artists joining together to complete drawings for 3D printed objects are from all around the world, including weapons.
     
  4. bongman

    bongman Member

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    CAD, 3D printing technology, CNC machining have been available since early 1980's. What new technology are you referring to?
     
  5. Svpernaut

    Svpernaut Contributing Member

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    Affordability and a unified community with the shared goal of freedom of information... in this case, the complete 3D drawings of countless real-world objects.

    I paid $520 for a fully working, fully calibrated desktop 3D printer. Three years ago the same printer would have been more than three thousand dollars. In three more years they'll be cheap enough for anyone to buy... and with community provided files, you don't need any experience, it is the click of a button.
     
  6. CrazyDave

    CrazyDave Contributing Member

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    I don't see a relevant equivalence.
     
  7. Svpernaut

    Svpernaut Contributing Member

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    The government underestimates the lust for knowledge, and the entire free world standing up for internet rights this past summer proves just that. The same thing is going to happen with 3D printing. 3D printers can COMPLETELY change the lives of people, making once unobtainable objects, obtainable... ESPECIALLY in developing countries.

    3D printing is our future, the Star Trek replicator is happening... and people are going to fight for their rights to have and use them, and of course Washington is going to try to stop them or regulate them, because they fear them. "Someone can use them to make guns, so they must be outlawed!" Completely ignoring the MILLIONS of practical uses for them.
     
  8. Rip Van Rocket

    Rip Van Rocket Contributing Member

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    It's so much easier to just go to the store to buy an assault weapon and large capacity magazine.
     
  9. Svpernaut

    Svpernaut Contributing Member

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    Today it is. In a few years you'll be able to create a high capacity magazine in minutes. Most magazines today are plastic... 3D printers print in plastic. Also, good luck finding a high capacity magazine right now, they're back-ordered for months and fly off store shelves.

    Even if you outlaw semi-automatic weapons, people can buy a non-semi-automatic weapon and fabricate the small parts needed to make it semi-automatic. You can't stop the knowledge, the internet has changed the game. We must get to the root of the problem as to why people do this stuff now.

    You're missing the point. Before most of us on this forum are dead, people will be able to print whatever they want within reason from home... and eventually from multiple materials. All the world renowned scientists and engineers and enthusiasts from around the world know 3D printing is the future, and in a few years the rest of the world will too.

    Oh, and you want to outlaw 3D printers? Well there are 3D printers that REPLICATE themselves.

    http://www.reprap.org/wiki/Main_Page

    <iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/5202148?byline=0&amp;portrait=0" width="600" height="480" frameborder="0" webkitAllowFullScreen mozallowfullscreen allowFullScreen></iframe>

    You can't stop it, so don't even try. Put your resources in to understanding it. IF not the government is going to be like Hollywood and the Music Industry trying to stop file sharers rather than embracing them and improving upon their ideas.
     
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  10. CrazyDave

    CrazyDave Contributing Member

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    Ok, but I don't think that SopaPipa demonstrates a lack of understanding of the desire for "free" and open knowledge the way you seem to, any more than I think that 3D printers are the lynchpin in the American gun rights discussion.

    I do agree with this...

     
  11. KingCheetah

    KingCheetah Contributing Member

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    Svpernaut, I can't believe you've gone to all this trouble with your thread and completely forgot to mention the huge holodeck problem we're going to have to deal with.
     
  12. Svpernaut

    Svpernaut Contributing Member

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    SOPA/PIPA were put in to place to help regulate the information decimated to the masses, as the government would have the power to change our internet rights as they saw fit.

    The government will do the exact same thing with 3D printing, they will try to regulate them to limit what people can make with them. I guarantee you that many politicians will call for the outright outlawing of 3D printing and sharing of 3D files at some point in the near future, simply because 3D printers can be used to print weapons.
     
  13. Svpernaut

    Svpernaut Contributing Member

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    I can't believe the anti-gun folks of this forum are too afraid to get involved in the conversation. You all know this is going to be a problem in the future, but you also know that 3D printing will help people... WHAT DO WE DO?!

    If you truly believe that 3D printing isn't the future, then I suggest you get to reading. Oh, and as far as the holodeck goes...

    http://gizmodo.com/5962319/the-holodeck-is-real-and-its-in-stony-brook-ny
    http://research.microsoft.com/apps/video/default.aspx?id=179806

    Oh, and the people leading the 3D printing charge are academics... people who are generally anti-gun.
     
  14. Northside Storm

    Northside Storm Contributing Member

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    I fail to see how government regulations in the present on assault weapons will preclude a stronger regulatory framework surrounding 3D printers-made assault weapons, in the decades following.

    Your call to lethargy due to future possibilities is not very appealing, as it precludes action on pretty much anything.

    why bother enforcing carbon regulations in if a couple of years, peak oil will hit?

    etc. etc.
     
  15. YallMean

    YallMean Member

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    I totally agree!

    Thank you for showing us why stricter gun bans are needed.
    And, why do you think 3D printing will not be regulated?
     
  16. Svpernaut

    Svpernaut Contributing Member

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    Again, the point is it is wasted time and money to regulate. 300 million guns are in gun owners hands, with tens of thousands now flying off the shelves. Now, people will be able to make their own.

    So what's the best course of action? Spend time and billions of dollars fighting what is already out there, or trying to get to the root of the mental health issues that cause these sorts of killings?

    Also, the government tried banning something that was opening legal and readily available in the days before mass shipping and the internet, and it failed miserably. See the 18th and the 21st amendments for details.

    I specifically said, several times that 3D printing will be regulated (or tried). The difference is, 3D printing has the backing of people on BOTH sides of the aisle, so good luck regulating them.

    You can have stricter gun laws, but it won't stop CRIMINALS from getting guns.
     
  17. Svpernaut

    Svpernaut Contributing Member

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    I should also add, most smart criminals or non-suicidal ones like those that go on rampages want non-traceable weapons. A 3D printed weapon is non-traceable, and exactly the type of weapon the real criminals would want. I can guarantee you organized crime is well aware of the future of 3D printing.
     
  18. YallMean

    YallMean Member

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    Why do people need 3D printing at home?

    Second, don't you think making, using, distributing, selling a design that can facilitate a making of a prohibited high capacity magazine will also violate the magainze ban law?
     
  19. KingCheetah

    KingCheetah Contributing Member

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    I own guns.
     
  20. Northside Storm

    Northside Storm Contributing Member

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    So because the problem is so large, America shouldn't do anything about it?

    Replace now with in a few decades first of all. I have a friend working on 3D printing, and the ability to get your gunsmith on is quite a distance away.

    Gun laws are not a waste of time and money if enforced properly. I'm leery of government being overbearing, but you find the benefit/cost points where it makes sense (banning excess magazine capacity etc.)---the empirical research I've seen shows me that most gun control has positive effects, and the only negatives I can see are enforcement costs, and possibility of Hitler reigning over America (???). If you can prove gun laws cost more than they benefit, then I'm listening.

    Until then, these arguments don't hold water. Present enforcement shouldn't be relegated to apathy just because the future will change (well, duh). And focusing on mental health does not preclude preventing the mentally ill from accessing weapons---in fact, the two are rather complementary.
     
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