Just to take a break from all those free agent threads. I don't post much so please don't whine about having another thread here, after all the forums are for discussion. My English may be bad and some of my information may be wrong so pardon me.. I watched some of the playoff series and what really caught my eyes were the phoenix suns and their coach, Alvin Gentry. He plays his starters until probably around the 8 minute mark and then will substitute in all five of his key bench players ( Dragic, Barbosa, Dudley, Amundson, Frye? ). Then he start the bench in the 2nd quarter and then subs in the starters together probably around the five minute mark or later (Correct me if I am wrong.) to end the half strong and so on. If this confuses you just think that the five starters are one group and the five bench players are another group and both group plays mostly at a different time slot, though some players may switch from either group to another if the situation calls for it. It’s like having two teams out there to compete with your opponent. We could call this the Gentry method for convenience sake. The regular substitution most coaches use is that they bring in their bench players separately in different time slots and mostly, its like two starters and three bench player in the game when its time for the bench to play. This could cause insecurities to the bench players as they do not know when they are playing, and may result in hogging the ball or pumping up stats when they do get the playing time. Chemistry wouldn't be as good as you are playing with different teammates each time. The Gentry Method cures most of these as not only the bench group would develop more chemistry, the starters too as they are allowed more time together as well. The bench players wouldn't worry much about when they will get subbed in as it is probably fixed so they have more time to prepare and get their mind into the game. And when they get hot or go on a run as a group the coaches could keep them longer in the game as he will know that whoever in the court works. Even if there may be a weaker player in the bench group, he could do and grow well with more time playing with his group mates. You must be thinking by now after all this reading --> "What? After four paragraphs and not any mention of the rockets? Get out of here stupid Suns fan!" Well rockets are my favorite team and the reason I am here so let's do this. BENCH GROUP G: Lowry SG: Jermaine? SF: Chase PF: Pat C: Hill The lineup could be different from the results of the offseason trades we may make. As mention in another thread about Lowry with run and gun, this lineup could play more up-tempo basketball which is a change of scenery from the starters. Jermaine could be put to iso situation as he seems comfortable with it. Chase could run through screens as Pat and Hill crash the boards while Lowry facilitates the plays. Though the bench group may be decent in defense, they may need more firepower as their offence could be a suspect. Maybe add Brooks in that group so Rick could do the Lowry-Brook combo that could work well. Well maybe Rick should use the Gentry method but not as strictly as Yao may need a breather or some players may be in foul trouble. And as I can see from reading the boards, Rick is a good offensive coach but sometimes does not do well in putting the right rotations or matchups on the court. With the Gentry method, he does not need to worry too much about the lineups and could just let the guys play. Maybe substitute the starters earlier if the bench is getting hammered. Well all these are just a suggestion though. And maybe I wrote all these for nothing as Rick is already using this method and I don’t see it. So some questions to ponder… 1. Why don’t teams use the Gentry method more often? And if they are team who use it, state them so I will know. I only know Suns uses this currently. 2. What are the pros and cons of the Gentry method? Well I stated a few but it’s mostly incomplete. Maybe I am wrong and the cons outweigh the pros so I need to know what are the cons are, and of course the pros. 3. Could the rockets use the Gentry method effectively? Does our bench group have enough talent to hold their own against the opposing bench players and maybe some opposing starters too? 4. Will more teams use the Gentry method in the future? And will or should Rick use it? 5. Could the Gentry method be less or more useful during the playoffs where the rotations may be smaller and the competition level higher? 6. Could the Gentry method take a team to the championship? Thanks for reading. Discuss…
i think adelman is a better coach although alving gentry is also really well but i think adelman has a better system in place
It's an interesting method because the players play with the same guys at pretty much all times. Obviously, there are times when the players get mixed up (foul trouble, etc), but for the most part, the bench guys play with bench guys and starters play with starters. Everyone knows each other on the court extremely well, so it works. You need to have guys that go well together, though.
If Rockets have that many players can play, they can try this method. Right now, Rockets are still assembling the stating line up.
Nice to see someone not taking something as important as substitutions for granted. That being said, Phoenix is a bit of an anomaly in a lot of ways. Their roster is filled with guys who play 2,3 and 4 positions and aside form Nash and Amare, the talent level of their bench players isn't as steep as most teams. A lot of those guys are interchangeable not only from starter/bench but between positions as well. It gives Gentry the ability to bring a "unit" in and still have flexibility with the matchups. It's also a necessity for Gentry to keep a deeper rotation because his team likes to play an uptempo game and his players would be more winded in the 4th if he kept a tighter rotation. I can see the benefit of group substitutions but for a team like Houston, our bench equivalents have different types of games. Lowry and AB for example are sufficiently different that Lowry might get more minutes if the PG matchup was killing us or we needed to protect a lead. I think Adelman has a good grasp on our substitutions - I'm not particularly concerned with that.
It will never work because RA isn't Gentry. He isn't comfortable with more than 7 guys getting significant PT. More importantly what Gentry did isn't a good move IMHO. The starters are the starters because of a reason, they're the best players you got. Dividing the roster into 2 sets means 5 cold players enter the court at the same time, and you have 5 guys who are warmed up due to PT sitting on the bench. A good coach pays attention to his roster, you let the guys that are feeling it play, and you sit the guys who are cold as ice, not everyone gets hot at the same time or gets cold at the same time. Ideally you want your best players getting 30 mins a game, and you want the subs getting 10 mins, unless the subs get hot or the starters are ice cold. So increasing the PT of the subs for the sake of chemistry limits the overall talent of the team.
It only works for very specific rosters. Otherwise, pointless. Case in point: If a team has Kobe at SG, and Ron Artest at Small Forward, why would the Lakers play Artest and Kobe the same minutes? The Gentry method pointlessly restrict player minute distribution for the sake of continuity. It may work for certain teams, like the old Jail Blazers, but not for most teams where player skills and minutes should vary greatly. It's also not very useful for teams that don't go 10-deep, which is most teams in the NBA.
It could be done, but defense would be seriously lacking on that team. If the opponent plays their starters when we have our bench in. RA plays his bench together occasionally, but never does it consistently for a reason. Imagine Kobe lighting us up without Shane or Ariza on him.
It wouldn't work with this team for a few reasons... 1. Ariza and Battier have the duty of guarding the opponent's best player who usually plays 36-42 minutes. 2. We have role players that have specific skill sets that RA likes to utilize. - Chuck Hayes: Defensive specialist thrown in for defensive situations or if the other team has a star PF - Andersen: Sent out to spread the floor. - Brooks & Lowry combo: Small/speed lineup 3. Rick Adelman simply isn't Alvin Gentry. He uses more of an adjustment coaching style. He simply changes the lineup based on the opponent.
Forgot to add... Even though I disagree, it was good food for thought. Definitely a change of pace in the GARM. So tired of hearing about Bosh.
Thanks for the comments. I now know slightly more now about why some teams don't use the Gentry Method. Like the talented kobe example as he should be playing more minutes than the less talented artest. What about the rockets? Its always mentioned that this team do not have true star players maybe for an exception of an healthy Yao. We are filled with good players but not great. This could make the Gentry method more effective to use on the Rockets team. Somehow I forgot about Shane so I will try to implement him to the bench group. Talent level difference of Starters and Bench Brooks - Lowry > The mention of Lowry could possibly start should make this less of an argument. Though I may be wrong. Martin - Taylor/Shane? > Martin wins this one of course but having Shane in here could help to guard players like Kobe or Wade. Ariza - Chase/Shane? > Shane would be ideal here but don't count Chase out as he moves on to his 2nd year. The Ariza/Shane debate on who should be starting could be still on but I doubt it as Ariza seems to have a hold on that spot and he wants to start. Scola? - Pat > The difference is unknown as I haven't seen Pat play but he could bring the same leadership and hustle Scola does. Yao - Hill > Yao of course is on his own world but he may only could play in limited minutes, which makes time for Hill to play Putting Shane in the bench group and maybe taylor out could be the solution of guarding teams with star SG/SF like kobe, durant. For example, Ariza would be defending Kobe and when it's time for the bench to roll, Shane could guard Kobe. And for the Rockets not having enough player... I wouldn't worry about that as Morey mostly always have full roster maybe for trading purpose. I am sure that there will be at least a 10 man rotation? Though I may be wrong at the end of the offseason when some players could be traded. And injuries may ruin the whole thing. Hmm and the hot and cold thingy... Not sure what Gentry would do but when Amare or Nash gets hot, I think the coach should let the hot player stay and sub in the rest of the bench group according to their position. For example, when Martin is hot, Taylor or Shane may not get to play during that period. Though it could destroy the whole chemistry issue thingy, this is a toss up. BENCH GROUP G: Lowry SG: Chase/Taylor? SF: Shane PF: Pat C: Hill And about the defense of the bench group, putting Shane in there could benefit though I really worry about the offense. Maybe putting Brooks in the SG position like I suggested in the first post could make it work. Any other suggestions? And Chase playing SG may not work though I would give him a try as he could develop his game since he's still a 2nd year player. Of course I don't expect Rick to come read this thread and miraculously apply this Gentry Method after seeing this. This is all for the sake of a light-hearted discussion. So let's discuss more into it.
Sorry for the double post. 1. Explained on the upper post. Would it work out? 2. Thought of that but didn't came out with good solutions T_T. Since they are specialist let them do their job and only bring them in when they are needed. 3.About the Rick is the Coach and not Gentry thingy, let's say Morey got a choice to hire the Adelman method or the Gentry Method. Which do you think is best for this Rockets team?
I think you already have quite a few pretty good reasons why it won't work - the best of which is that Houston has several different "looks" they can throw out depending on the matchup. All our SG/SFs for instance have slightly different skill sets. Some nights, we don't need ten guys playing out there...other times, we need the Chuckster out there playing some meaningful minutes. As mentioned earlier, Anderson is a matchup guy when you need a stretch big, you would put in Brooks/Martin/Battier/Bosh(fingers crossed) if you needed to break a zone but if you needed a stop, you put in Lowry, Battier/Ariza/Bosh(fingers crossed). The Suns don't really have that different skill set with position players. Dragic and Nash play the same type of game for example...
1. Yeahh I suppose so. But then is it still the 'Gentry Method'? 2. Because we have specialists, we almost have to go with Adelman's system. Phoenix has a total different personnel and they're not quite as deep as Houston... so I wouldn't say they have this problem. But I could be wrong. 3. I pretty much answered this with #2. Different types of players, which is why Adelman is much more suited for this team. IN MY OPINION of course. Regardless, this was a great topic. I don't think this has ever been brought up. Interesting ideas.
