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OKC's Big Two with/without James Harden

Discussion in 'NBA Dish' started by durvasa, Nov 1, 2012.

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  1. durvasa

    durvasa Contributing Member

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    Just some +/- numbers I looked up for OKC last season (regular season only).

    Code:
    Durant and Westbrook
    ---------------------
                 MIN    OFF    DEF    NET
    w/  Harden  1124   117.2  107.5  +9.7
    w/o Harden  1036   103.3  100.0  +3.3
    
    Durant, no Westbrook
    --------------------
                 MIN    OFF    DEF    NET
    w/  Harden   235   110.9  104.3  +6.6
    w/o Harden    36    76.7   85.5  -8.8
    
    Westbrook, no Durant
    --------------------
                 MIN    OFF    DEF    NET
    w/  Harden    64   107.9   85.2 +22.7
    w/o Harden    11    76.7   82.6  -5.3
    
    
    Harden
    ------
    			MIN    OFF    DEF    NET
    Durant,Westbrook       1124   117.2  107.5  +9.7
    Durant,no Westbrook     235   110.9  104.3  +6.6
    Westbrook,no Durant      64   107.9   85.2 +22.7
    no Durant,no Westbrook  435   112.2  104.6  +7.6
    
    
    It will be interesting to see what kind of drop-off OKC suffers without James Harden, if any. Some have argued that Harden provided redundant skills so OKC won't be greatly impacted by the loss. But these numbers, to me, suggest otherwise.

    To what extent can Kevin Martin and Jeremy Lamb make up for the loss?
     
  2. LCAhmed

    LCAhmed Contributing Member

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    K mart is not a playmaker, purely a shot taker. Lamb is unproven but still a great prospect who can be molded to become what once was James Harden.
     
  3. Rocketeer

    Rocketeer Contributing Member

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    Yeah to me is not really the points, I'm sure K-Mart will fill that and some, but it's really Hardens decision making and passing. What we saw last night when the Rockets were down by 11, Harden was just cool and composed, taking it to the basket and just making wise decisions with the ball. He really does make his teammates better.
     
  4. The_Yoyo

    The_Yoyo Contributing Member

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    the first game is tonight it will be interesting to see how that works out for OKC -- I am sure they will be fine but it will be interesting to see how their bench will operate and in general WB and KD without having Harden there.

    Martin can replace the scoring but I feel Martin's skillset completely overlaps with what KD does. Martin can finish plays he doesnt start or create them.
     
  5. juicystream

    juicystream Contributing Member

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    Clearly they should have traded Durant. Look at those stats for Westbrook/Harden combo. :eek:
     
  6. flamingdts

    flamingdts Member

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    Agreed.

    Martin can score, but every other facet of his game is terrible. Also, if he doesn't get calls, he is practically useless on the court.

    Lamb is nice, but I feel like he will develop along the same lines as Marshon Brooks.
     
  7. phantoman

    phantoman Contributing Member

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    wow hardens O - D is huge with him on the court comparative to Durant and westbrook... i guess we can say he is a good 2 way player.
     
  8. BigBenito

    BigBenito Member

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    Can't wait! - Mr. Scott

    Not surprised that there were only 47 minutes total that you could use as a comparison with them solo. Was surprised that WB/Harden only combined for 64 though. (Did that go up in the playoffs?)

    And yeah, the starting line up that included Perkins, Thabo, and Ibaka really hurt offensively. But, good to see it is at least 7 points better on defense (even if it is not as good a net in comparison). Unless Ibaka really steps his game up, that unit will continue to suffer on offense.
     
  9. BigBenito

    BigBenito Member

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    Unless I'm missing something, those stats show he is a boon on offense and a detriment on defense. (Since he is replacing Thabo - it isn't hard to see why the numbers make it look that way.)
     
  10. Easy

    Easy Boban Only Fan
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    That's exactly what I thought. I was really surprised.

    I know last night was only one game. But Harden seems to be much more effective playing with a good PG (Lin) than with a bad PG (Douglas). That's somewhat surprising to me too. I always thought Harden's skills overlapped with a PG's, especial one like Lin who is also an attack type PG.
     
  11. durvasa

    durvasa Contributing Member

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    Higher the DEF, the worse the defense. :)

    Not surprising, though. Sefalosha is a defensive specialist, so I would expect OKC to play better D with him on the floor than with Harden.
     
  12. durvasa

    durvasa Contributing Member

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    I wouldn't go that far with only 64 minutes. :)

    But taking everything together, its interesting that OKC's performance isn't "elite" when Harden wasn't on the floor. Despite having what most experts would regard as 2 top-10 players and a host of solid role players.
     
  13. JayGoogle

    JayGoogle Member

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    He makes his teammates better, that much is clear.

    Looking forward to tonight's game. I have a feeling that Westbrook is going to try to prove something.
     
  14. A_3PO

    A_3PO Member

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    OKC has to hope Maynor, K-Mart, an improved Reggie Jackson and an improved, more utilized Ibaka will make up for Harden on the offensive end.

    When will Coach Bonehead announce who the backup PG is? This is getting silly. The OKC beatwriter said RJ's confidence problems last year came from how he was treated by teammates, Harden in particular. I was on RJ's bandwagon and he sorely disappointed.
     
  15. Mr. Clutch

    Mr. Clutch Contributing Member

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    They are going to be exposed.

    Can you say Lakers part 2?
     
  16. jopatmc

    jopatmc Contributing Member

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    Yeah, I'm thinking WB is gonna play SG a lot with Maynor at the point.

    Good thread, good stats, Opie.
     
  17. BigBenito

    BigBenito Member

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    Any chance you could duplicate chart this using Collison instead of Harden?

    Pretty please!
     
  18. JayZ750

    JayZ750 Contributing Member

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    durvasa, seems like only the top comparison is valid, statistically from a minutes perspective.

    Just Durant/Westbrook vs. All three.

    Not that surprising, really. All three on the court at the same time is better.
     
  19. A_3PO

    A_3PO Member

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    While going small is something OKC probably will do a lot more this season (with Ibaka and Collison at C), pairing WB and Maynor regularly may not be one of them. It's amazing we are still waiting for the coach to announce the backup PG and it may not even be Maynor. With PJ3 replacing Cook as the backup SF, the 3rd string PG may not get much floor time. I have a feeling they want to throw RJ into the pool to see if he can swim. If yes, Maynor is a goner. If not, they can bench RJ and ride Maynor's steady hand. Either result will reduce the pressure on WB this year considerably.
     
  20. rolyat93

    rolyat93 Contributing Member

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    He needs a PG who's at least a threat to make a play when the D collapses, if not the D can key in on the paint when he drives, if TD could've at least hit a shot or 2 Harden would've had 40+ last night.
     

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