1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

West vs East

Discussion in 'NBA Dish' started by Kim, Nov 7, 2014.

  1. Kim

    Kim Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 1999
    Messages:
    8,972
    Likes Received:
    3,664
    It's early, but it seems like nothing has changed once again. For the last 15 years, the East has had a terrible conference relative to the West for the vast majority of the time. Without looking it up (and we have many threads on this topic here), I believe 13 of the last 15 years the West has had a better inter-conference record. Of those 13 years, many have been as high as 60% win rates iirc. The roots of such an imbalance have been debated (injury luck, free agency movement, bad trades, bad management), but the consequences are real. Almost every year 1 or 2 teams from the West that fail to make the playoffs are better than many East teams. The Eastern Conference playoffs is consistently easier than the Western Conference playoffs. Good Western Conference teams beat up on each other on the way to the finals. Bad teams in the East that need lottery picks end up with lower 1st round picks and the cycle of suckness perpetuates for them.

    It's evident that money is more important to the NBA than competitive balance, but it's definitely not good for the league to have such disparity every year. There must be a breaking point, no?

    Last year was particularly horrible as the West record vs. the East was 284-166, and the general hope was that it was just a 1 year aberration. So far (and it's early) things have remained the same this year...actually it has gotten worse. Early results show a 14-3 W/L record for the West vs. the East. I'll keep updating the stats every week or so.
     
  2. YOLO

    YOLO Member

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2012
    Messages:
    46,474
    Likes Received:
    44,649
    to be fair, the east is getting a lot better now as of late. The heavyweights are obviously chicago, clev, and indy if they were healthy. Miami is still solid. they are adding more competitive teams with the emergence of washington and toronto. both solid teams that can compete
     
  3. CCorn

    CCorn Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2010
    Messages:
    21,376
    Likes Received:
    21,093
    East is the wests farm system outside of the top 2.
     
  4. Kim

    Kim Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 1999
    Messages:
    8,972
    Likes Received:
    3,664
    Everything is relative though. For each East team that got better, another got worse. As a whole, the Eastern Conference was more terrible last year vs. the Western Conference than in years past, and it's generally bad for the East. I hope that things get better, but we'll just have to wait and see if history repeats itself again and again and again.
     
  5. hoopster325

    hoopster325 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2014
    Messages:
    818
    Likes Received:
    82
    I think I've figured out why the East is much worse year in year out.

    The pressure to make quick decisions is ultimately much higher in markets in the East than historically in the West. Fans will give their teams time to build cohesion I believe, whereas these major markets in the East have made so many bad decisions over the years because the pressure to compete was higher.

    The only organizations in the East who seemingly don't buckle to the pressure are the Bulls, Pacers (and maybe the Celtics).

    However, every other organization either makes short sighted decisions for short term gain to pleasure fans, or makes quick illogical decisions due to their ownership having zero patience.
     
  6. DudeWah

    DudeWah Member

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2007
    Messages:
    9,643
    Likes Received:
    3,523
    It's kind of sad that in that time. The east has still managed to win 5 championships. 3 for the heat, 1 Detroit, and 1 Boston.

    For the extent that the west is better, the east shouldn't have 1/3 of the championships over that timespan.
     
  7. Kim

    Kim Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 1999
    Messages:
    8,972
    Likes Received:
    3,664
    11 out of the last 16 champions for the West is not a disproportionate to the West's dominance over the East. I don't think the record over the last 16 years has been at an 11-5 clip overall. Those Eastern champions were worthy...that is not my argument. My argument is that it's bad for the NBA to have 1 conference consistently have worst teams in and out of the playoffs and have an easier path to the finals.

    As for the pressure theory, I'm no so sure about it. Eastern teams have more pressure so they make quicker and worse decisions? Can I examples from both sides?
     
  8. Easy

    Easy Boban Only Fan
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2002
    Messages:
    35,051
    Likes Received:
    23,945
    The emergence of the 3-stars teams Celtics and then Heat got them 3 championships. Detroit was universally regarded as an anomaly. So that pretty much left the Wade-Shaq Heat as the only "conventional" championship team from the East.

    This season should have some power shift. Cleveland is an instant contender, at least on paper. Miami is still good. Chicago's resurgence and Toronto's improvement will all make it a more competitive conference.

    I still remember during the early 00's, the West Conference finals were the real Finals. Those were the darkest days for the East.
     
  9. sealclubber1016

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2010
    Messages:
    18,999
    Likes Received:
    27,530
    Miami and Toronto would miss the playoffs in the west, they will probably be the 3 and 4 seeds out east. The gap is not closing. People have been saying the gap is closing for 15 years. 9 of the 11 best teams in the league are in the west.

    There are institutional problems out east.
     
    1 person likes this.
  10. YOLO

    YOLO Member

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2012
    Messages:
    46,474
    Likes Received:
    44,649
    miami, toronto and washington could hang with phx or whatever team that is fighting for the 8th spot
     
  11. DudeWah

    DudeWah Member

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2007
    Messages:
    9,643
    Likes Received:
    3,523
    All of the first part of what you wrote is a weird thing to say. It's not as if Detroit being an "anomaly" or Miami/Boston having "3 star teams" magically nullifies their championships. A championship is a championship. I think it's a bigger point that it's somewhat unfair that the team from the west has to grind to the finals, whereas the top east team gets to stroll into the finals with hardly any real competition.

    I agree with that last point though. That Sixers team and those Nets teams had no business being in the finals. The east was just bad.
     
  12. hoopster325

    hoopster325 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2014
    Messages:
    818
    Likes Received:
    82
    New York Knicks -
    Any explanation needed? Isiah Thomas era was just all quick short term decision making to try and make a splash and make New Yorkers think they had a chance.

    Brooklyn Nets -
    Everything has been short term with Prokorov, they could have drafted Lillard but instead preferred a declining Gerald Wallace. Basically traded away their entire future for the twilight years of Kevin Garnett.

    Charlotte Bobcats/Hornets -
    Mainly MJ's bad decision making compounded. He bottomed out finally after they made the playoffs in 2010 with a very average roster.

    Detroit -
    Charlie Villanueva, Ben Gordon, and Josh Smith all get huge long term deals?

    Cleveland -
    Massively screwed up the Lebron 1.0 era by giving away all assets for spare parts instead of slowly building a contender. Gave away Boozer prior to him becoming an all star.

    Washington -
    Where to begin, they've made catastrophic decisions going back decades. Thought that Gilbert Arenas deserved the largest contract in the NBA at the time. Banked on Gilbert, Caron Butler, and Antwon Jamison was a Big 3 capable of competing. Also after John Wall and Bradley Beal, Nick Young is their 3rd best draft pick since 2000. Their 4th? Take your pick between Kwame Brown, JaVale McGee,Jared Jeffries, Juan Dixon, Jan Vesely, Jarvis Hayes, Lazar Hayward, Otto Porter, Oleksiy Pecherov, or Chris Singleton (all were 1st round draft picks)

    Philly -
    Never paired AI with a capable big man until it was too late (Chris Webber). Then built a terribly average team around Iggy and paired him with Elton Brand. Then built this semi-competitive roster of Jrue Holiday, Iggy, Lou Williams, Thad Young, and Vucevic only to end up trading away Vuc whose now a top center for Bynum.

    Just to name a few.

    Could probably go through how Orlando screwed up the Dwight era, how Toronto screwed up not competing with Vince and Tracy McGrady on the same roster, Milwaukee has always been a mess and traded a Hall of Fame shooting guard named Ray Allen for two months of Gary Payton. I don't think Atlanta needs any picking apart their history, the fact that the Joe Johnson era will be looked at as the "good old days" for Hawks fans kind of tells the story.

    The Pressure Theory does make sense.

    Indiana, Chicago and Boston though haven't made as many brash decisions historically, seem to have more patience than every other East team. Chicago also is exceptional at developing their own talent.
     
  13. SunsRocketsfan

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2002
    Messages:
    6,232
    Likes Received:
    451
    They should just get rid of conferences and just let the top 16 teams advance. First two rounds of the playoffs for the east is going to be unwatchable again
     
  14. Carl Herrera

    Carl Herrera Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2007
    Messages:
    45,153
    Likes Received:
    21,570
    You know the disparity is bad when even the Lakers are undefeated against East teams.
     
  15. Kim

    Kim Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 1999
    Messages:
    8,972
    Likes Received:
    3,664
    Your theory is that "the pressure to make quick decisions is much higher in the East"...I just don't buy that. First off, I don't fully get what you're arguing. Are you saying the pressure to win now? The pressure to have a plan? The East has been bad for 15 years. I get that theory for short term success with Brooklyn, but that's the last 2 years.

    Is the pressure in LA any different than the pressure in NYC? Other than the last couple of years, LA has been arguable the most successful franchise within the last 15 years and NYC one of the worst. The pressure to succeed is huge in both markets.

    Then you talk about Washington....what pressure is there to succeed? They have been horrible under Grunfeld and he hasn't been fired. That's actually an indication that ownership (from Pollin to Leonsis) has given the GM wonderful job security to have long-term plan. Grunfeld's failures are well documented, but he surely has had a long leash to put together a winning team, which they finally are.

    All of your examples are of bad GM decisions in the East. What about the West? Are they better or worse decisions over all? And so what? What does that have to do with pressure?

    You give good examples of bad decision-making, but then I think you need to tweak your theory. It's not necessarily that the East has more pressure than the West, but perhaps, the East has worse GMs than the West overall over the last 15 years.

    Cleveland didn't give away Boozer btw.

     
  16. rhino17

    rhino17 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2006
    Messages:
    17,805
    Likes Received:
    4,069
    The western conference generally just better management, ownership, and organizations. The East has a bunch of old school, out dated, an uncreative people running teams. The West has been progressive as the game has changed, more teams use analytics, they find better coaches, the utilize the D-League, they scout better abroad, don't waste 2nd round picks, etc. Outside of New York or Miami, there also aren't any destinations I would think any player would "love to play for" because of the location (I don't know why anyone would wanna play for the knicks anyway). The west has far more desirable cities, organizations, coaches, winning traditions, etc.

    I think the media argument is garbage. If anything, basketball is generally less popular in the east, far more baseball towns out there. There is just as much pressure out west if not moreso to compete.
     
  17. KeepKenny

    KeepKenny Contributing Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2000
    Messages:
    2,721
    Likes Received:
    14
    Is there some site that tracks and updates the record of east vs west? I've never been able to find one. I love this thread and agree that east/west disparity is still wildly understated by the media.
     
  18. hoopster325

    hoopster325 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2014
    Messages:
    818
    Likes Received:
    82
    Wrote that late at night in a stream of consciousness sort of manner. Need to put more thought into it.

    In general, teams in the West just are more patient, if there is a key to building a contender in sports, its patience, and that's especially true of basketball. So I would say teams are just less patient in the East, and that's probably partially due to pressure, partially due to staying relevant in much for fast paced environments (which is obviously the case in New York City).

    Continuity I would say is a very underrated factor in basketball. Western Conference teams perhaps understand this better than Eastern Conference teams.
     
  19. hoopster325

    hoopster325 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2014
    Messages:
    818
    Likes Received:
    82
    Basketball generally less popular out East? I think most cities in America basketball is 2nd in line to other sporting teams. Really the only NBA cities that are the most popular in their own city would be the Bulls in Chicago, Lakers in LA, and maybe the Pistons in Detroit. Obviously excluding the one sport cities as they don't compete, although Oregon football is probably bigger than Trailblazer basketball, and Thunder are 2nd to the Sooners.

    I would also bet that more players in the NBA come from Eastern Conference cities than Western conference cities. Think about it, you have Indiana & North Carolina where basketball is incredibly popular.

    Then as far as markets go (forget the organizations in the league), the three best markets for producing NBA talent surely are Chicago, Philly and Greater DC.

    Agree though about the uncreative, old school minds running the East. Some of them though are brilliant like Larry Bird. He's built 3 contenders as coach/GM in his time with the Pacers.
     
  20. J.R.

    J.R. Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2008
    Messages:
    106,788
    Likes Received:
    154,648
    <blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Two more double-digit wins for the West tonight, now 44-19 against the East.

    Which is how the Celtics, at 4-7 are in a virtual tie for 8th.</p>&mdash; Sean Grande (@SeanGrandePBP) <a href="https://twitter.com/SeanGrandePBP/status/536375419843653633">November 23, 2014</a></blockquote>
    <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
     

Share This Page

  • About ClutchFans

    Since 1996, ClutchFans has been loud and proud covering the Houston Rockets, helping set an industry standard for team fan sites. The forums have been a home for Houston sports fans as well as basketball fanatics around the globe.

  • Support ClutchFans!

    If you find that ClutchFans is a valuable resource for you, please consider becoming a Supporting Member. Supporting Members can upload photos and attachments directly to their posts, customize their user title and more. Gold Supporters see zero ads!


    Upgrade Now